"Is Ultramodern Warfare the new “Current Affairs”?" Topic

It seems that way. Apparently you can start anything you want in that Board, and anything goes. Plug right wing politics? Check. Religion? Check.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Or, you can not read the posts!

It is somewhere for folk to go and maybe take politics with them.
At least we know where they are.

I would rather there was less politics on TMP, but people do want to air their "ideas" for the benefit of anyone who does not agree with them.

Tedious but unavoidable?

martin

Sometime topics can't be fully discussed without mentioning a small level of politics.

But I prefer and try not to … but again, some topics go there at times.

I thought that was what the Blue Fez was for? I suspect (having never been there) that it is a right wing echo chamber where all agree to what is being discussed and that some there are bored and need someone to argue with so they bring that crap here.

All I want is that such blatantly political threads be directed to the Blue Fez.

I agree with John and machinehead regarding what has been happening on TMP. I do stay out of most of the political discussions since they don't seem to present information so much as they seem to cement individual's current beliefs. I agree with Irish Marine that you can just not read the posts, but whatever happened to 'there is a time and place for everything'?

It seems that way. Apparently you can start anything you want in that Board, and anything goes.

If the board bothers you, let me know, and I can take away access so you can't see it any more.

Plug right wing politics? Check.

I just checked, and there are ZERO complaints in the system about anything on the Ultramodern Warfare board. So, apparently no one else shares your point of view, and you've failed to file any complaints.

Religion? Check.

Be sure to read the FAQ so that you understand the forum's Religion Rule. We do not allow proselyting for any religion, nor do we allow any religion to be denigrated. TMP link

Well, I suppose dissension is one way to maintain hits to the website as a selling point to advertisers, if you are drawn to such things.

I am not.

There are several individuals who very disingenuously start threads with thinly disguised political agendas who I have subsequently stifled and ignored. If these individuals are the OP's, then the thread never appears on my message boards, regardless of where they are posted. Thus, you never see the flaming train wreck these threads become.

I very much recommend it.

Well, I suppose dissension is one way to maintain hits to the website as a selling point to advertisers, if you are drawn to such things.

The thought has never crossed my mind. The TMP wargaming community largely decides what goes on the forum.

Some people will complain about anything, and everything.

As mentioned, if some topics bother you, don't click on them.

"Plug right wing politics? Check." I am contently complaining about this.

"Well, I suppose dissension is one way to maintain hits to the website as a selling point to advertisers, if you are drawn to such things." this certainly has occurred to many folk, include the more right bending folk at my game group.

I find some of the discussions fascinating. Some of the opinions are utterly alien to anything you will find on my side of the Atlantic!

Politics is an integral part of modern warfare, just as economics are.

In fact, politics and economics will add to the understanding of modern conflicts.

I'm with John the OFM. And when a topic is disingenuously titled, how can you "just not click on it" when you can't tell from the title that it's actually some political screed?

If a post offends you, then hit the freaking complaint button. Sometimes people get heated and go too far. Let the editor know. He is very powerful, but not omniscient.

Well if it turns out that the post is actually a political screed then simply hit the "Go Back One Page" and then move on. Get over being "offended". Who cares?

Never said I was offended, I just don't visit war game sites to have to wade through political

Just stifle the guy stirring the pot. I did. :)

I've never had much luck with stifling annoying people, because my curiousity gets the better of me and I have to see what they wrote.

The problem with not clicking is that they have started to post topic headings that seems like a reasonable topic and then you click on it and you read something that is totally false and outrageous. I have trouble not correcting them. Then you get hooked into the conversation. I think they call that trolling. I have finally stopped doing that. Ignore and stifle is nice but I still get their post with their text blanked. Doc, I am looking at you.

Doc, I am looking at you.

No, you are not, not if you have stifled me! :)

"but I still get their post with their text blanked"
How is that a bad thing?

I have always believed that being challenged by views divergent from my own is a good thing, forcing me to defend my own position, and on occasion leading me to change it. I believe the common slang for people who cannot tolerate "bad think" is "snowflake."

I wish to believe only what is true, which means what is real. Of course, like everyone, I have dogma, assumptions about reality that cannot be proved. I try to be open about those assumptions so others can take them into account. It is difficult to debate someone with a fundamentally different understanding of reality, but possible if we can find SOME common place to start.

I'm sorry that so many on TMP do not know how, or do not care, to do that. Merely exchanging opinions, and feelings, is worthless. There is no reason for me to care about your opinion or feelings, nor for you to care about mine. (Except that basic politeness is always a good thing.) Give me facts, logically connected to the topic, and perhaps you may persuade me. Not easily, as I am an old man, well read, who has pondered many of these issues for half a century. The views I hold are solidly based and not easy to disrupt. But it DOES happen, occasionally, and when it does I am very grateful to the friend who helped me see something different that I had not seen before.

Never said I was offended, I just don't visit war game sites to have to wade through political

I don't recall getting any complaints from you.

I don't recall Current Affairs, only followed TMP for about 8 years so far.

I think Ultramodern is often political, but in different ways. One way is in discussions about military capacities and development around the world and the political leadership that is connected to these things. Normal stuff.

The other way is when something like Afghanistan happens and hyper-political stuff takes over. I was freaked by how much rage was directed at Milley and Biden. The evac was a mess, but I was not prepared for some of the rancor, which continues on other topics.

I should point out that I feel the ACW Board is far more politicized these days. Posts start out like history and end up in Lost Cause land, red vs blue, culture wars. Some of the things that make cable news such a snake pit have been showing up. Also on AWI sometimes.

I have jumped into much of this. I am not always sure why. But sometimes I feel like some of it is just not right and should not go unaddressed. I have never agreed with the "just don't read it" solution.

Tort, I have enjoyed interacting with you on many of these issues. You have showed curiousity and restraint in the face of some views (including mine) that I'm sure are new or strange to you.

If the board bothers you, let me know, and I can take away access so you can't see it any more.

@Editor in Chief Bill, I wonder – isn't that what John the OFM is asking – at least unconsciously?

The problem with not clicking is that they have started to post topic headings that seems like a reasonable topic and then you click on it and you read something that is totally false and outrageous. I have trouble not correcting them.

@Old Contemptible, there are two big problems with correcting people on internet…

1) One might be the one that's wrong – or at least partially wrong.

2) It's a Sisyphean task.

link

Perhaps what is needed is a "trigger warning" icon or the words themselves, on a thread title, so that sensitive eyes are not affronted. Or perhaps Bill could do like Facebook does and not allow dangerous thinking to be seen?

a "trigger warning" icon

Would that look like your icon, doc? ;)

"Perhaps what is needed is a "trigger warning" icon or the words themselves, on a thread title, so that sensitive eyes are not affronted. Or perhaps Bill could do like Facebook does and not allow dangerous thinking to be seen?"

I think this is missing the point.
Very few, if any, of the members here are "sensitive". The point is, many would rather not stray so far from actual wargaming.
"Dangerous thinking", what's that? What you imagine others think of your opinions? What you think of other opinions?People have 'different' opinions, that's all. I would expect most would be happy to share their opinions – just not necessarily on a wargaming site they come to for amusement and escape.

"Plug right wing politics?

I'd say it covers the spectrum but seems many here may be "Conservative". If I am allowed to say that?

I was freaked by how much rage was directed at Milley and Biden. The evac was a mess,

Well being a former Infantryman and Bn Air Ops Officer in the 101. I found the entire operation a horrific mess. Based on my previous training and experience, and still do. I find that Cluster unforgivable, and the loss of 13 good Americans only makes it that much worse. Especially when a much better plan was known and could have been used. 'nuff said …

Politics is an integral part of modern warfare, just as economics are.

In fact, politics and economics will add to the understanding of modern conflicts.

Bingo !!!! Stone Mtn +1

Some of the opinions are utterly alien to anything you will find on my side of the Atlantic!

You don't have aliens over there ? If you want some we got bunches !!!! Some may be even from Alpha Centuri A, etc.👽

Would that look like your icon,

🔫 How's 'bout this ?

+1 to lkmjbc3's post below …

You cannot separate politics from war.

The real issue is how our concept of self has changed. An argument against one's political opinion is now considered an attack on one's self identity. It is personal. This is made worse by the final triumph of managerial socialism over classical liberalism… The classical liberals still cling to the idea of free speech and the open flow of ideas. Their opposition has adopted and internalized the new view of identity.

Thus, any discussion of war/politics is a personal attack. The poor classical liberal stands confused.

TMP would be a poorer place if all we could discuss was uniform colors and terrain building. I am afraid though it may come to that as time progresses.

Joe Collins

Thus, any discussion of war/politics is a personal attack. The poor classical liberal stands confused.

I don't know, Joe. Despite the weaving of current politics in posts on this board, I have found it to be a congenial board and haven't ever come close to feeling disrespected.

However, there are boards, which shall not be named, where one can get the feeling of being from an inferior species by not know the precise formulae for uniform dyes, etc. And, yes, I've have been accused of fantasy gaming because I can't paint the difference between pointed and square cuffs on figures smaller than 20mm. In such a case being ignored is often a better outcome.

The point is that small 'p' politics in an academic discipline of historical research can show up on the boards for the relevant period and can be quite disagreeable – especially for poor punters who just want a game that is a reasonable (yes, in the eye of the beholder) facsimile of the period.

In my view discussing current (ultra-modern) trends in conflict must involve a degree of big 'P' politics, economics and diplomacy.

You cannot separate politics from war.
People keep saying that. Of course it's true. I don't think anyone would deny it.

The question is, how much political backstory to their tabletop miniatures do most gamers want? And I know you were being facetious, but there's a heck a lot more to wargaming than uniforms and terrain.

I think within our community at least, no one takes any of these discussions personally (unless insults fly!)they just have different opinions – probably strongly-held opinions.

Joe and Shadoe, yes. I have been blessed by having students at high schools (Joe was one, long ago) who enjoyed playing games with me, first SPI boardgames and then minis. They would dive in to whatever rules set I was trying out, or writing, and were tolerant when something didn't play out well. Politics didn't matter, and neither did the facing color or whether the unit had bastion lace, which I tried ONCE to paint. My brother the yellow dog Democrat still plays with me, mostly now remotely -- though I am pondering making a rule for "sniping" that will allow us each to get in our political digs at each other.

I think Joe has it; for many people here it is PERSONAL. It is not, for me, though it is very IMPORTANT.

But I really do not understand the complaints. TMP is a huge playground, and if you don't want to swing with Doc Mcb, there is a splendid merry-go-round over there. No one is forced to go onto any thread. And the stifle feature works fine.

Toughen up, snowflakes.

shadoe01 wrote:
"However, there are boards, which shall not be named, where one can get the feeling of being from an inferior species by not know the precise formulae for uniform dyes, etc."

And well you should! On some boards… not knowing such things is beyond the pale!

Oops. I have made a racist comment.

More seriously, I agree. I find most of TMP to be quite polite. There is however a current flowing in society to stifle certain opinions. Our Editor is left with the difficult decision of whether to swim against it or go with the flow.

I for one hope he picks the more strenuous choice.

Joe Collins

Who'd was stifled ? 😬

I find some of the discussions fascinating. Some of the opinions are utterly alien to anything you will find on my side of the Atlantic!

Really…? Examples, please. I'm on the same side of the Atlantic as you and the same side of the Channel but I've seen nothing here that is "utterly Alien". Less common, maybe but not utterly Alien.

DBDD

👽👾

Legion, I was not freaked out by your reaction as a vet, you framed yourself as such and that I get. Others took a different tone. I can't put my finger on it. The leadership was a train wreck. But it was clear to me that it was about imcompetence. You sold me on holding Bagram, after I initially felt the casualties would not be worth it. Incompetence yes, Lack of personal integrity or treason, no. It was hard to take.

Politics is an integral part of modern warfare, just as economics are.

In fact, politics and economics will add to the understanding of modern conflicts.

The problem, of course is that politics quickly shifts to polemics. Political discourse online is notoriously low and it seems that these discussions quickly degenerate to political sniping. The constant attacks on Biden and Milley re:Afghanistan, for example while ignoring the two decades of policy that it was the culmination of.

The real issue is how our concept of self has changed. An argument against one's political opinion is now considered an attack on one's self identity. It is personal. This is made worse by the final triumph of managerial socialism over classical liberalism… The classical liberals still cling to the idea of free speech and the open flow of ideas. Their opposition has adopted and internalized the new view of identity.

I think every political conflict in history would counter this. Politics is an inherent part of the exercise of power. Post WW2 prosperity made it easier for better off whites to largely ignore disparities as "politics", but violent conflicts still arose where poor material conditions demanded improvement labor, safety, civil rights, etc. Invariably, the existing systems would push back at the "rabble rousers", "socialists, etc. Free speech has never stopped our country from violently suppressing groups that oppose the status quo and is frequently trotted out to defend the most vile of views and those in positions of power and privilege.

It is fitting that the Civil War boards were mentioned earlier. As Faulkner put it- The past is never dead. It's not even past. The Civil War never truly ended and Reconstruction never came. The traitorous, proto-fascist Confederacy was dissolved in name but its actors were allowed to remain in power throughout the South and entrench anti-democratic systems. Once the competition of slavery was formally dismantled, industry had no problem adopting the racial hierarchy to keep labor divided. The legacy of this lives on to this day to the point you still have fights about removing monuments to slavers and traitors.

Thanks doc. Not too much is new or strange to me. I am old and have been through some serious stuff.
You do set up some lively conversations and I am always glad to keep what's left of my mind working!

"Toughen up, snowflakes."

You want to have a serious discussion and yet … you conclude with this statement. Not very mature.

There are no snowflakes here, just folks with different opinions. If you are responding with comments like that perhaps it is you who is taking things personally.

I turned 75 today, but still have trouble with that maturity thing.

It is the few who insist that we must not discuss certain topics, or introduce certain types of material, lest they be affronted (when they have alternatives beginning with not going there) who might qualify as snowflakes. No one who argues in good faith, for whichever side or view, would deserve to be termed such.

Bill has chosen -- and I am grateful -- that boards such as the American Revolution and the Civil War may include discussion of the history, and not just the gaming. But no one is obligated to read any such threads. If it doesn't interest someone, or repels them, they should just not read or post on them.

I turned 75 today

Happy Birthday! :)

Jamesmurp:
I am puzzled by your reply. The point is not that folks don't get upset over politics… and respond even with perhaps violence… rather that the internalization of identity has produced a much less tolerant attitude among peer groups such as this one. It also I think has produced more difficulty amongst political opponents in the US.

For an excellent read on this I recommend Carl Trueman's, "The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self".

Your comments on Confederate Monuments and such are an example. 20 years ago they were not controversial. Now they are testaments to hate, fascism, and rebellion and must be destroyed. Something has changed…

Joe Collins

Happy Birthday John!

You are still young at heart. I have an ugly one coming up myself soon. Egads…

Joe Collins

John if you had been bipartisan over the years in your posts I could take you seriously as the champion of TMP rules. Your post clearly shows where you fall in the political spectrum and what you would like to see censored.

Your comments on Confederate Monuments and such are an example. 20 years ago they were not controversial. Now they are testaments to hate, fascism, and rebellion and must be destroyed. Something has changed…

Yes, something has changed- people are less accepting of open monuments to racist legacy. Especially since most of these were erected in direct response to calls for Civil Rights. It has been a slow and painful progress, but it is progress. Historical tolerance of racism is hardly laudable and I would most certainly rather lack common values than share those particular ones.

Moreover, tolerance does not mean that one must abide by bigotry or oppression. Discrimination against disempowered groups has resulted not just in misery, but in violence and death. That is unacceptable and those who would plant or water the seeds of such do not need to be coddled.

Reactionaries and cultural "conservatives" conflate pointing out the flaws, injustices, and divisions with causing them. They ignore how our country has been divided since it's inception (at that point, explicitly by law), used its power to brutally oppress the disempowered, and whine that any attempt to even acknowledge this, much less address it, is reverse racism, political correctness, cancel culture, or whatever the current term of political outrage is. This is nothing new, fortunately it too has progressed from the white riots and lynching from "the good ol' days".

Which is what leads directly to old white men complaining that they are the victims. In a sense they are (to the degree that America has always ruthlessly exploited its workers, failed to maintain decent housing and health standards, etc.), but, again, the old lines are still there and many seem content to blame minorities/immigrants/liberals/LGBTQ/etc. instead.

Identity is *always* internalized and frequently defined by reference to groups. I think the bigger issue is the atomization of society and how commercialized "liberty/freedom" (ie classical liberalism tuned to corporate capitalism) has eroded community. Treating people as commodities and not as essential elements of a functional society has wrought a terrible cost. Both "sides" see it- they lament the hostility, the lack of community, the few big players controlling things. The lower on the pole you are, the sharper it gets. Unfortunately, a solution of just stepping on others seems to sell very well despite it being the very mind set that created this situation.