"Why do the British always win every war" Topic

Looks like the Romans and then America episodes are coming. Might be fun to watch?

Strictly speaking, Agincourt wasn't a British victory or the HYW a British defeat- they were English (and possibly Welsh and Irish). Scotland was on the side of the French and at some stages of the HYW provided the majority of the French army.

Mind you, Al Murray (full name Alastair James Hay Murray) doesn't have an entirely English ancestry so perhaps that's part of the joke.

Fwiw i like the series.

Andy ONeill
And FWIW this ludicrous thread has given it lots of very very welcome publicity.

Trockledockle

1202-1815. 600 Years War :)

If you added in Syria 1941 it would be the 739 year war.

"Scotland was on the side of the French and at some stages of the HYW provided the majority of the French army."

Please cite your sources for that, please.

42flanker

link

Edinburgh History of Scotland Vol 2 pages 248-25
The Auld Alliance Stephen Wood page 30-33

Trockledockle

If you added in Syria 1941 it would be the 739 year war.

But we are not.

Vichy France was not 'the Republic of France'.

42flanker

Armies of the Middle Ages Volume 1 Ian Heath Wargamer Research Group pages 72-75

Trust that these are sufficient.

Vichy France thought it was and it was recognised by the USA. Have a look at this.

link

France wasn't a republic before 1789.

The nation states of France and Britain as we understand them today were only clearly formed in the last 300 years and very different politically and geographically to the nations of the 1200 to 1700 period. In the island of Britain, Scotland (and Wales/Ireland to some extent) did not see themselves as part of a United Kingdom and neither did Burgundy and Navarre see themselves as part of France. It doesn't make much sense to me to talk about the HYW as being a British war when there was no United Kingdom of Great Britain and one of the constituent nations was in an alliance with France.

Interestingly, there is some recent research that the Auld Alliance signed in 1295 has never been cancelled.

link

However, all of this is very academic and way off topic in a Napoleonic forum so I will stop. We are all entitled to our opinions but should be open minded enough to change them with discussion and as more information becomes available.

@Trockledockle
Ah, the contingent under the Earls of Buchan and Wigtown, sent out in 1419, decried as sacs a vin et mangeurs de mouton in some parts of France, which was not a unified kingdom at that date. They had some success fighting for the Dauphin against the English- killing Henry V's brother Clarence in the victory of Baugé in 1421- until Buchan's defeat at Cravant in 1423 and the disaster of Verneuil in 1424 which cost the lives of at least half the Scots force and their commanders Buchan and Douglas. There was further disaster at Vernay in 1428. After Cravant the Dauphin wrote:": ‘almost none of the nobles of our kingdom [were] there,' he wrote, ‘but only Scots, Spaniards and other foreign soldiers, accustomed to live off the country, so that the harm is not so great."

Traditionally, Scots soldiers fought at the side of Jeanne d'Arc 'La Pucelle' during her brief moment in the limelight but like Jeanne their moment of glory in France was brief. On the other hand, the Scots recruited as the Garde du Corps Ecossaise began a tradition that lasted into the C19th.

Don't rewrite the History nor Vichy France always supported by Great Britain despite diplomatical relations were officially broken but de facto maintained in London (and on French soil merci thank you Canada canal) nor Free France heavily ostracized by United States and Roosevelt s'antifrench policy giving carte blanche to the Japs, keeping planes bought by the French but giving others to the pro-japonese Siamese ennemies, were at war with Great Britain or Australia between 1940 and 1942

the British attacked their French "allies" in Portsmouth Davenport sending them to camps 10 000 of them, Mers-el-Kébir in 1940 killing 1300 more when not even the last Fortress troops in the Maginot Line had ended to resist to Hitlerians hordes occupying already the half of the country, then in Syria in 1941, with mainly the Australians…hum…déjà vu… with some Free French and Indians, and Madagascar in 1942 (1500 French prisoners of war in UK this year) or Torch all that French territories with French soldiers and sailors under French tricolour flag and French sovereignty certainly stronger than in the metropolitan territory itself occupied by germans and italians
I don't remember that the French attacked the Brits or declared war to Great Britain (or Australia) and all their always good excuses to attack them and giving to Britain a good role

the title of this thread is enough ridiculous it is not necessary to add more or comments like the Scots provided the majority of the French Army especially coming from the so-called "English" Armies of the HYW who were often "english" on paper

the so-called 740 years war 1202-1942 forgets the alliances against the Dutch Spaniards Germans Chinese and the Russians in Crimean War were 300 000 French were sent with 100 000 dead vs around 100 000 with only 20 000 dead for the British side, but of course it is also a "British victory" as usual like the Revolutionnary and Napoleonic 23 Years Wars with the Austrian Russian Prussian contributions and all the wars where Britain took part…

Are any of you really Mariano Menendez?

I replied to him on Quora a few years ago:

link

A powerful rebuttal of the unfortunate Senor Menendez there, Mr Dibble. I would just like to add that Paddle Steamers were powered by Steam Engines and Steam Engines were invented by…

Vichy France thought it was and it was recognised by the USA.

I seem to remember Kevin being a bit nonplussed to discover this some years ago…

Just watched the 'Romans' episode. Al Murray's final saying 'The Brits won by losing' suggests he should consider going into politics. LOL

Yes Lapsang, I think that we all know about the development of the steam engine. First tentatively with Englishman, Thomas Newcomen but then Famously, James Watt's designs and collaboration with Matthew Bolton (a Scotsman and an Englishman)

The first steam-powered vessel designed by William Symington was tested in October 1788 on Patrick Miller's loch at Dalswinton, overlooking the river Nith above Dumfries.

I didn't really want to contribute again but it is worth adding that that the theoretical basis for heat (steam) engines was first described by Sadi Carnot. He was the son of Lazare Carnot, Napoleon's minister of war in the 100 days and during the revolutionary period.

Would Trevithick, Watt and Boulton have been surprised to hear that?

Napoleon's Minister of War during the 100 Days was Marshal Davout. Carnot was Minister of the Interior.

Carnot was Minister of War during the Marengo Campaign in 1800.

Watt etc died before Carnot published so I can't say whether they were surprised or not. Watt has a reputation not only as a practical mechanic but also as a natural philosopher (physicist in today's language) with a wide range of interests. He visited Paris and was a corresponding and associate member of the French Academy (of science I assume). I'd like to think that he would have been quite happy to hear of Carnot's work as it could have provided a foundation for further developments. All well off topic.

Brechtel – thanks – you are correct, Carnot was appointed Minister of War by Buonaparte in 1800 and left public service in 1804 because of his republican principles. He returned in 1812.

I finally got to watch the Napoleonic episode over the weekend. I thought that it was quite funny and it amused me – which was the point of the program. Anyone here that thinks that this was a serious look at history needs to have a sense of humour check up. The recreation of the Battle of Trafalgar took place on Southsea boating lake – in fibreglass pedalos that resembled either Ducks or Swans whilst the protagonists threw tennis balls…
The point made about the different standard of rations that the French and British Navy enjoyed was of interest and I thought that the joke about British food being more practical than French Cuisine funny. You cant march and eat a dish of Beef Bourguignon but if you have a pie or a pasty…No wonder the French lost!
If you would like to get vexed about a TV documentary about the Napoleonic period, take a look at the Smithonian Channels 'Napoleon at Waterloo'. I had the misfortune to watch this over the weekend and thought that Al Murray did a better job.

Arcane Steve
I think the clue might be that it's produced by a comedian and all the guests are comedic personalities? But then several of the professionally affronted contributing to this thread have shown over many years that they have nothing resembling a sense of humour?

Just watched the Americans episode. The best so far I think. Interesting and funny.

I was very impressed with Al's skill when firing a musket, albeit not that far away from the target. Two kills out of three. Sharpe would be impressed! LOL

A bit of negative was the fact they tried to give the impression the British never lost a field battle against the Americans, it was all skirmishing etc. If I remember right the Americans did win field battles, such as Saratoga.

However, concerning the British and their history in general, he even produced a better saying than the one he offered in the Roman episode. His brilliant statement on the British was 'they were good at losing the right war at the right time'
Gotta love the guy! LOL

American victories in the field include:

-the Battle of Bemis Heights (Saratoga Campaign).

-Trenton

-Princeton

-The Hollow Way

-Cowpens

-King's Mountain

-Stony Point

Carnot did not return to work for Napoleon until 1814 and offered his services because la patrie was in danger. He was immediately promoted to general of division and given the assignment of defending Antwerp, which he did successfully against the allies.

During the siege, he was summoned to surrender by Bernadotte, who sent his aide-de-camp under a flag of truce to parley with Carnot, asking him to join the garrison to Bernadotte's command adding them 'to those which I lead to the conquest of peace.' Carnot's blunt refusal was a calculated insult: referring to Bernadotte as 'a prince, born a Frenchman, who knows so much about the standards of honorable conduct.'

Bernadotte was not popular with the Grande Armee.

Another anecdote is even better. French soldier-stories have Bernadotte 'demanding a parley with the commander of a French-held fortress in Germany. The sentry promptly shot at him: Bernadotte protested and was told the sentry had merely tried to apprehend a French deserter.'-See John Elting's Swords Around A Thronek page 691, note 13.

You really do have to love the "Stifle" function on this website.

Isn't it.

to stifle – to prevent oneself having to listen to a different viewpoint that may challenge your own viewpoint. Yeah, I can see why some blinkered people might like it.

Still stifled.

Gazzola: +1

And another one long stifled.
Really not interested, lads.

I switched the television on this morning and realised the sound was off. People were debating something but, without the sound, I had no idea of what the debate was about. I had a choice to higher the sound to see what the discussion was about and see if it might interest me or to ignore the debate and change the channel. After all, no one was forcing me to higher the sound and find out what the debate was about or to make any decisions on what was being said. It was up to me. I mean, I could have switched the TV off but how silly that would have been.

ps: turned out the discussion did not interest me and I turned to another channel. Simples! LOL

Keep typing, lads. Still stifled.

How sad that some people actually come here 'not' to read the post? Still, it's their choice and it takes all kinds, as they say. I guess some people can take it, while others obviously can't. LOL

@ trockledockle

It doesn't make much sense to me to talk about the HYW as being a British war when there was no United Kingdom of Great Britain and one of the constituent nations was in an alliance with France.

If you change that mildly, to read

It doesn't make much sense to me to talk about Waterloo as being a German victory when there was no country called Germany and one of the constituent nations was in sympathy with France

you get in terrible trouble around here from the usual suspects!

4th Cuirassier,

Mmmm, no desire to stir up that one so I'll stick with my words. There is a difference between an alliance (and sending troops) and in sympathy. Out of interest, which Germanic nation are you thinking of?

Saxony, which didn't want to be run by Prussia. V (Saxon) Corps of Bluecher's army mutinied, took pot-shots at him, and had to be sent home.

"the conquest of peace"
The idea was also in Carnot's letter to Napoléon offering his services in early 1814.
"24th January 1814
SIRE,— As long as success crowned your enterprises, I abstained from offering to Your Majesty services which I did not think were agreeable to you; now, that ill-fortune puts your constancy to a severe proof, I no longer hesitate to offer you the small means that remain to me. …. There is still time for you, Sire, to conquer a glorious peace, and to have the love of the great people restored to you"
link
Original in French :
link

Here is Bernadotte's request to surrender (my translation) :
"8th April 1814
General Carnot,
I send to you my aide de camp general [General-Adjutant *] who has my complete confidence and who will bring you up to date on the most recent developments that have taken place in Paris. You will see that the Emperor Napoléon is deposed and that the Senate has offered the crown to Louis XVIII. In proposing to you to give up the fortress which you command and to join your troops with those that I lead on the conquest of peace, I show my desire to conserve for France a man whose distinguished talent can again be so useful to her – and I give you the most solemn proof of the estime and consideration which I have always had for you.
Yours in friendship, – Charles-Jean."
link

*Un-named in Bernadotte's letter, but very possibly the commander of the Swedish engineering branch of service General-Major och Kungens General-Adjutant Riddar Gustaf Wilhelm af Tibell (1772-1832), who had been previously in the French and Italian service (1795-1803), was married to the daughter of a French colonel, and was (in-)famous at the Swedish court for his francophile ideas.
link

"Carnot's blunt refusal was a calculated insult"
Here is Carnot's refusal to Bernadotte in full. I am not too clear on it being blunt or insulting. Napoléon would abdicate the next day, ceding Antwerp in the Treaty of Fontainebleau.

"Antwerp, 10th April 1814.
PRINCE,
It is in the name of the French Government that I command in the fortress of Antwerp. That Government alone has the right to fix the termination of my duties : as soon as it shall be incontestably established on a new basis, I shall hasten to obey its orders. This resolution cannot fail of obtaining the approbation of a Prince born a Frenchman, and who knows so well the laws prescribed by honour."
link
Original in French : link

Except as Minister of the Interior during the 100 Days, Carnot's talents were indeed never again used by France. He was exiled in 1815 and went first to Warsaw and then Magdeburg in Prussia, where he died in 1832.

In Chapter VII of "Swords Aroud a Throne", Colonel Elting wrote : "Frenchmen considered [Bernadotte's] pretensions a joke. [Note 13]"
"[Note 13] Soldier yarns had Bernadotte demanding a parley with the commander of a French-held fortress in Germany. The sentry promptly shot at him: Bernadotte protested and was told the sentry had merely tried to apprehend a French deserter."
This has been re-quoted often since 1988, even here, but I can find no mention of such an incident before Colonel Elting.

The only time I could find Bernadotte near a French-held German fortress after his "desertion" was in early August 1813, during the Armistice, when he went to Stettin. Two howitzer rounds were fired at him from an outlying works called the "Prussian Fort" while he was reviewing the Prussian Landwehr screening Stettin. One round exploded 30 steps from Bernadotte. He protested and received an apology from the commandant of the fort, and commissaire and officers of its garrison. "The French displayed to their countryman and former comrade in arms their eager wish to realize peace and the end of their discomfort."

Kronprinsens af Sverige Carl Johan, fälttåg, åren 1813 & 1814
Daniel Ehrenfried Gravallius [1777-1849]
Stockholm : Trycht hos Olof Grahn, 1814
volume 1, pages 55-56

Die Belagerung von Stettin im Jahre 1813
Georg Gaebel [1853-1929]
Stettin : Verlag von Leon Sauniers Buchhandlung, 1913
pages 54 et seq.

Stettin, now Szczecin in Poland, was perhaps the most isolated of the by-passed fortresses in 1813 and was not attacked by the Allies. The 9,000 man garrison surrendered in November 1813 for want of provisions.

Can anyone suggest a source for Colonel Elting's "soldier yarns" ?
Or provide any example of Bernadotte being at a French-held fortress in Germany ?
Or provide any sort of contemporary accusation of desertion against Bernadotte ?