"according to this list why did not form a square?" Topic
16 Posts
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| just joe | 05 Oct 2021 2:56 a.m. PST |
astgelegde vlaggen Na nauwkeurig overleg met al zijn bronnen is generaal Andolenko er zeker van dat 14 infanterievlaggen definitief gevangen zijn genomen, en dat er geen enkele kolonelsvlag bij zat. Dit wordt bevestigd door de schilderijen van Detaille, Baud en Lalauze, die zijn gereproduceerd in het werk van Lachouque. Volgens het onderzoek van de generaal kan daarom de volgende tabel worden opgesteld: Regiment Vlaggen verloren Model Kleur Azov 3 1797 Roze
kruis Kastanjebruine hoeken
Stro gele vlag staaf Arkhangelogorod 1 1800 Zwarte
kruis
Rode hoeken Zwarte vlag staaf Narva 2 1797 Oranje
kruis Hemelsblauwe hoeken
Witte vlag staaf Padolie 5 1803 Roze
kruis
Witte hoeken Zwarte vlag staaf Koersk 2 1797 Donkergroen
kruis
Rode hoeken Zwarte vlag staaf Paré 1 1797 Geel
kruis
Groene hoeken Witte vlag staaf Blijkbaar werden noch cavalerie noch wachtnormen gevangen genomen. Sommige van deze kunnen zijn verward met bedrijfsmarkers vanwege hun eigenaardige vorm. Daarnaast werden verschillende notenbalken met doekstroken gevangen, die vaak worden verondersteld vlaggen te zijn. Het is mogelijk om te speculeren, welk Frans regiment welke Russische vlaggen veroverde. Ik vermoed de volgende verdeling: Arkhangelogorod – 5e Cuirassiers Koersk – 26e Chasseurs à cheval Podolie – Fusiliers van het 36th Line Regiment Perm – Grenadiers van het 46th Line Regiment Azov – 2e Huzaren – Fusiliers van het 33rd Line Regiment Narva – 2e Huzaren Deze lijst werd samengesteld op basis van de geregistreerde troepenbewegingen en de actie waarbij deze troepen betrokken waren tijdens de slag. Bronnen Andolenko: Aigles impériales contre drapeau du Tsar, gepubliceerd in Revue Historique de l'Armée 1969 Gorokhoff: Drapeaux russes pris à Austerlitz, gepubliceerd in SCFH[1] 3/1963 Fouré-Aerts: Artikel in SCFH 1/1962 (hoewel het kleurenschema twijfelachtig is) Lachouque: Napoléon et la Russie Zweguintzow: L'Armée russe, Deel 4 Charrié: Les trophées de la campagne de 1805; gepubliceerd in Amis Musée Armée, Issue 72 Notitie: [1] Noot van de vertaler: SCHF is de Société des Collectionneurs de Figurines Historiques
Geplaatst in de Napoleon Series: maart 2010 |
 Herkybird  | 05 Oct 2021 3:28 a.m. PST |
laid flags After careful consultation with all his sources, General Andolenko is certain that 14 infantry flags have been captured definitively, and that not a single colonel flag was included. This is confirmed by the paintings of Detaille, Baud and Lalauze, which are reproduced in Lachouque's work. According to the general's research, the following table can therefore be drawn up: Regiment Flags lost Fashion model Colour Azov 3 1797 Pink
cross Maroon corners
Straw yellow flag staff Arkhangelogorod 1 1800 black
crotch
Red corners Black flag staff Narva 2 1797 Orange
cross Sky blue corners
White flag staff pad oil 5 1803 Pink
crotch
White corners Black flag staff Kursky 2 1797 Dark green
crotch
Red corners Black flag staff pare 1 1797 Yellow
crotch
Green Corners White Flag staff Apparently neither cavalry nor guard standards were captured. Some of these may have been confused with company markers because of their peculiar shape. In addition, several staves with cloth strips were captured, which are often believed to be flags. It is possible to speculate which French regiment captured which Russian flags. I suspect the following distribution: Arkhangelogorod – 5th Cuirassiers Kursk – 26th Chasseurs à cheval Podolie – Fusiliers of the 36th Line Regiment Perm – Grenadiers of the 46th Line Regiment Azov – 2nd Hussars – Fusiliers of the 33rd Line Regiment Narva – 2nd Hussars This list was compiled based on the recorded troop movements and the action these troops were involved in during the battle. Sources Andolenko: Aigles impériales contre drapeau du Tsar, published in Revue Historique de l'Armée 1969 Gorokhoff: Drapeaux russes pris à Austerlitz, published in SCFH[1] 3/1963 Fouré-Aerts: Article in SCFH 1/1962 (although the color scheme is questionable) Lachouque: Napoleon et la Russie Zweguintzow: L'Armée russe, Part 4 Charrié: Les trophées de la campaign de 1805; published in Amis Musée Armée, Issue 72 Note: [1] Translator's note: SCHF is the Société des Collectionneurs de Figurines Historiques
Posted in the Napoleon Series: March 2010 This is what Google Translate made of this! |
| just joe | 05 Oct 2021 3:45 a.m. PST |
the regiments attacked by cuirasier/ husars? |
| Camcleod | 05 Oct 2021 10:12 a.m. PST |
What are you talking about ????? |
| rmcaras | 05 Oct 2021 10:41 a.m. PST |
I have no idea what this post is about. Perhaps it was intended for another, non-English website? |
| Camcleod | 05 Oct 2021 10:57 a.m. PST |
So who is General Andolenko, when did he make his list (1969?), is he talking about a specific battle or the whole of the Napoleonic Wars, why do paintings make a difference ?
You would have to analyze each instance to determine how and why the standards where captured and if the unit formed square or not. Squares were often broken during the wars. |
| Michman | 05 Oct 2021 11:37 a.m. PST |
I am also confused as to the question. But here is what was copy/pasted – well translated into English …. link |
| Camcleod | 05 Oct 2021 11:59 a.m. PST |
Austerlitz explains it a bit. As the Wikipedia article says : 'With the Allied center demolished, the French swept through both enemy flanks and sent the Allies fleeing chaotically, capturing thousands of prisoners in the process'.
Hard to form square when you are fleeing. |
| just joe | 05 Oct 2021 1:56 p.m. PST |
ear Camcleod
flags lost by 2 de husars azov lost and others any squares ? if not why? |
| Michman | 05 Oct 2021 2:48 p.m. PST |
I checked this one ….
The Archangel Musketeers' regimental history said they were in squares to defend against French cavalry, and lost 1,600 men out of 2,200 mostly to artillery, acting as a rear-guard while Bagration's detachment withdrew. The regimental history confirms loss of a flag at Austerlitz, but not the circumstances. The regiment was allowed to have the flag back in use for distinction at Leipsig. [There should have been 4 "spare" color flags from their original issue in 1800.]
The French Bulletin after Austerlitz attributed an unspecified Russian flag to the 5e cuirassiers' chef d'escadon François Jacquemin (1757-1806, killed at Eylau), who was promoted Officer of the Legion of Honor for Austerlitz.
The conjecture, quite possibly a good one, which connects chef d'escadon Jacquemin with the Archangel Musketeers' flag seems to have been made first by Andolenko in his 1969 work. |
| Michman | 06 Oct 2021 1:14 a.m. PST |
I checked another one …. At Austerlitz, the Azov Musketeer regiment lost 5 banners – only the white banner remained. But one of the color banners was saved from captivity by NCO Starichkov. The banner was returned to the regiment, and on 30 January 1806, the Emperor allowed continued use of this banner. On 13 July 1806, the Azov regiment was deprived of the right to receive the St. George banners awarded to them for Shengraben as punishment for the loss of banners at Austerlitz. A little later, 2 more color banners were returned with men returning from captivity (one was saved by NCO Zamarin, the other by Ensign Gribovsky), but they were denied to the regiment, again as punishment. For distinction against the Swedes, the regiment was allowed 4 new banners in 1809, bringing them back to the "honorable" full count of 6 permitted banners. The Azov Musketeers' regimental history does not detail the loss of the banners at Austerlitz, but places the event during the confused withdrawl/rout of Przhibyshevsky's 3rd colum. "Hard to form square when you are fleeing." The only claim of a capture from the 2e hussards that I could find was that Captain Gustave-Daniel Braun (1775-1848) took an Austrian cavalry standard (sometimes identified as from a cuirassier regiment), getting slashed on the right cheek with a lance as he rode away. Oddly, Captain Braun seems to have received no specific recompense for Austerlitz. Upon hs death he was more generous. Then Lieutenant-Colonel (ret.) Braun endowed a perpetual fund to give about $300 USD/year in modern money to deserving hussar rankers, the gifts rotating annually through the regiments by number. One unspecified "enemy flag" was taken at Austerlitz by Corporal Alexis Villain (1775-1852) of the 33rd Line, who was duly recognized as a Chevalier of the Legion of Honor and promoted to Sergeant. I could find nothing before Andolenko linking this flag with the Azovetsy. |
 deadhead | 06 Oct 2021 1:32 p.m. PST |
I do think that members have been so generous in responding to this posting with so much information. The original topic title was very vague, but the opening posting is just a Google translate into Dutch, of an English translate, from the original German. Please, please, take a moment to pose a simple question. Folk here really want to help. We all do. What we get from Just Joe (used to be Serge Joe) is just chaotic. Make an effort. |
| just joe | 10 Oct 2021 8:55 a.m. PST |
sometimes it seems topic what i am asking very strange because because i have no place in the new subject question have to shorten so i have it is not my mistake
have
Google Translate |
| deadhead | 10 Oct 2021 12:15 p.m. PST |
Google translate is just incredible. It can be so bad When I talk about 12th Cuirassiers in 2e DB in WWII, they are translated as "leatherworkers". I have reasonable French, so I can spot the worst mistakes. Google translate tells me that a tank is a reservoir (seriously) so I have learnt char de combat. Joe. People here are so helpful. I think they are even better if you are not the usual English/US membership. Pose a really simple question, tell us the time/period/date involved and why you need to know. This site is full of incredibly helpful folk, who advise for free, with great knowledge, but you MUST help them |
| SHaT1984 | 11 Oct 2021 2:46 p.m. PST |
Michman, >>The Azov Musketeers' regimental history does not detail the loss of the banners at Austerlitz, … That is because, missing from unit does not mean 'lost'.
Lost colours NEARLY ALWAYS means in English, taken by the enemy. Not dropped on the ground and forgotten… So, when Russian soldiers deliberately tore their flags off the poles they were nailed to, and hid them in their underwear etc. they were not 'lost' as is currently known. Neither were they 'captured' or taken by enemy, even though the soldier who hid the flag WAS TAKEN PRISONER. That at least two Russian flags and possibly more were saved by this subterfuge is amazing. That the soldiers who did this eventually escaped captivity and returned the 'sacred' items is confirmed. That the French found the poles/ staves on the battlefields with remnants of material left on them doesn't detract or enhance either side. No doubt 'someone' would have kept them as a trophy of sorts. Regards d |
| SHaT1984 | 03 Mar 2022 7:53 p.m. PST |
Reduxing---- why did not form a square? Never quite answered I feel, and yet so much information otherwise. Russians-
You cannot perform a bayonet charge in square, so we are induced to believe, they only ever attacked. Therefore in lines of battle or columns of manoeuvre.
Defensive posture at the battalion level anyway, wasn't in their psyche!
The largest amount of banners taken by the French were among the Divisions/ thousands of bottled up Second and Third Columns troops who simply, standing around much of the morning,
had little to no actual combat, except when trying [finally] to escape the [French] encirclement manoeuvre started about 2pm-ish.
As to those in the Northern sector (Murat/Lannes vs Bagration), these were in combat lines or columns and were simply taken by suprise as their own cavalry retired, in some cases. (Again- refer tactics above).
The issue of torn off flags and thrown away staffs was equally cited by Davout in his expanded report and recommendations for promotions/ rewards. As the flags (two incidents) had gone he said his men also, threw the staff away.
Others Davouts men captured intact were predominantly in the fight for Sokolnitz, and the other Divisions mopped up post-combat.
Those of Soults Corps and others (except First?) fighting were legitimate combat captures.As the Wikipedia article says : 'With the Allied center demolished, the French swept through both enemy flanks and sent the Allies fleeing chaotically, capturing thousands of prisoners in the process'.
Hard to form square when you are fleeing. Yeah and more mush you won't read. Whoever wrote that hasn't even studied the battle properly… >>With the Allied center demolished
It took a long time. And there were several 'parts' of the centre, at differing times across the 8-9 hours. >>the French swept through both enemy flanks
Utter rubbish.
The French RIGHT- was entirely defensive and bordered along the Goldbach AND settlements.
The French LEFT- was supposed to be the organic swinging flank in the original plan, but the timing, ground and tactics of Bagration successfully delayed that interminably. SO no they didn't. >>and sent the Allies fleeing chaotically,
Wrong again. On Pratzen, the French had a heck of a fight to sustain the position, and the Allied reserves came along and caused more confusion and could have swung the battle. The lack of initiative and adherance to blinkered orders showen by mostly Russian Generals and fopps, plus legitimate communication breakdowns, is what did for the Allies what the French couldn't quite achieve. Yes, in the end, by virtue of a 360 degree turn they pigeon-holed a massive part of the enemy army and largely intact with much less loss than the rest of the day. Azov – 2nd Hussars… Narva – 2nd Hussars Cannot be accurate or presumed realistic. The 2eme H. were stationed and active at the very far left flank of the Grande Armée, Under Kellerman/ Murat. None of that force was released or prenetrated very far South except perhaps after the fighting was over.
The only hussar regiment in the Southern sector was Soults own 8eme Hussards who performed the same role at the right flank, and then concentrated around the fighting of Sokolnitz later in the morning. Colonel Franchesci was alleged to have personally captured Wimpfen. One unspecified "enemy flag" was taken at Austerlitz by Corporal Alexis Villain (1775-1852) of the 33rd Line, who was duly recognized as a Chevalier of the Legion of Honor and promoted to Sergeant. I could find nothing before Andolenko linking this flag with the Azovetsy. According to Goetz the 33eme de ligne (Div Friant/ GBD Kister) engaged from approximately 11am at/in Sokolnitz with 3d Column: Lt. Gen. Przhibyshevsky – Striks' Division including Galich Musketeer Regt; Butyrki Musketeer Regt and Narva Musketeer Regt. I'm reasonably certain it was care of GBD Levasseurs brigade, that stood as grand reserve to the rest of Soults Corps near Kobelnitz that accounted for Azovs. Citing Andolenko figures "Le 18e de Ligne a pris 5 drapeaux russes." The 75eme only one (unknown regiment). These latter attacked directly South toward Wimpfens Division that had stood 'at the ready' all day as well, as the other Divisions of Soults Corps turned WEST to cut off the 2nd and 3rd Columns retreat and communications. The subsequent, and tragic, if not farcical, rout of these troops was nothing like the grandiose pomposity of the 'ponds' effort.
Indeed GDV- Grand Marescal Duroc and GDV Oudinot commanding the Grenadiers of the Reserve, about 4:30pm. spoke toward the end about 'collecting the sheep' that were gathered about the fields.
Regards
≠davew≠ |
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