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"Old Glory not to attend Historicon 2021" Topic

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26 Sep 2021 5:09 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Sep 2021 2:21 p.m. PST

I am terribly sorry to announce that Old Glory will not be attending Historicon 2021.


We had signed up and were eagerly looking forward to attending the show.
This will be the 1st HMGS EAST show Old Glory HAS NOT attended in the last 33 years.

Connie, myself and the OG staff had truly looked forward to once again having a face to face visit with friends, customers, and other dealers after so long a hiatus.

The decision was an entirely enternal one based on staffing shortage difficulties and a deluge of orders from clients and local customers who we feel our 1st obligation should be their satisfaction.

We eagerly look forward to being able to return to the shows at some future date.

Once again, my apologies and please everyone have a great time and be safe.

Russ Dunaway

Col Durnford26 Sep 2021 2:28 p.m. PST

That's going to create a big hole in the dealer's hall.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2021 3:29 p.m. PST

A pity, but it is understandable, and I commend you on putting customers first.

14Bore26 Sep 2021 3:50 p.m. PST

Shame I saw this today earlier, did have a shopping list. But hopefully next year things will improve.
It is nice to come out and announce this.

Rotundo27 Sep 2021 1:10 a.m. PST

I got in the habit of ordering online with these folks. Some very large and very complicated orders. Several, like in the ten range. I had one minor issue once that was so minor I didn't even bring it up. I also had one issue that was significant. It was totaly rectified in 7 days. Get an Old Glory Army Card and shop thier site with confidence, I am not great with computers, by the way. Still managed to shop there online. In fact, I now prefer it. Anyone with a list, have a coffee or a tea, browse the pictures (quality pictures), and get an army together. Thanks for alot of years of fun.

Personal logo Sgt Slag Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2021 6:08 a.m. PST

Top notch, Russ. I applaud your decision to put mail order customers first. I have always liked the way you run your business. I ordered some fantasy Female Dwarf figures from you, a number of years ago. They exited the paint queue after a number of years of being stalled, and they were blooded on the tabletop battlefield, earlier this year. They were a blast to game with.

Please, never change the way you run your business! Also, THANK YOU, for the quality photo's on your web site! They are the reason I ordered the Dwarves from you. My fantasy armies are pretty much bloated out to the point of bursting my hobby wallet, or I would be a frequent customer. Cheers!

Cormac Mac Art27 Sep 2021 8:04 a.m. PST

As someone who just signed up for an army membership and placed an order, thanks for thinking of your customers. But really, I'd be fine waiting for my order if it meant y'all got to go to a con. I've got a mountain of minis that need to get painted.

historygamer27 Sep 2021 11:13 a.m. PST

Cold Wars at the Ocean?

Disco Joe27 Sep 2021 11:56 a.m. PST

Is the new website up yet?

HMS Exeter27 Sep 2021 2:47 p.m. PST

Come now, Historygamer,…

We all know in Maryland it's not,…
Cold Wars at the Ocean.

Cole Wurz, dun ye'owe'shun.

historygamer27 Sep 2021 2:58 p.m. PST

LoL. Good one. :-)

Just curious since OG is skipping this coming con when we might expect to see them next.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Sep 2021 3:56 p.m. PST

Ocean City was a "NO GO" for us out of the box.

Russ Dunaway

kcabai27 Sep 2021 4:34 p.m. PST

Little Wars 2022?

HMS Exeter28 Sep 2021 4:38 a.m. PST

For a very long time it has seemed that HMGS(E) has been like that cartoon character who walks around with his own personal storm cloud. The membership has long been optimistic, but nervous, about how it's doing.

We have tended to ruminate over attendance stats, con profitability, the number of game events at each show, and the number and size of the vendors, hoping for some sort of reassurance that we're OK. We've dealt with the loss of some larger vendors. We've soldiered thru the Baltimore debacle and camp followed our way up and down the mid-Atlantic. And we weathered the scary 2008 downturn.

And now we are gaming in the days of Covid. As a hobby we've overcome more bumps and bruises than a kinder providence might have allowed.

I can't speak for others, but the single biggest data point for me on how well HMGS(E) is doing has always been, "is Old Glory coming to the con?" That was always my trip wire.

And now that we are here I see how galactically unfair that concept truly is. It is not their responsibility to carry us. They aren't my personal St. Bernard. They're another group of people that participates in the cons, and must do so in accordance with their best interests. If the con gets cancelled, OG will inevitably come in for some amount of blame. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. That won't be merely galactically unfair. That unfairness will be biblical.

OG is. OG abides. It may well be less fun to get figures out of a shipping box than out of a bag Connie hands you, but these are the days of Covid.

OG is in the same boat we are. Maybe we should carve out a slice of trying to carry them instead of looking to them to tent pole our enjoyment.

You know you were going to peruse their website before the con and maybe put together a pick up order. Do so anyway. In the days of Covid, postage can be an act of viral defiance. Take that straight up your jacksie you stanking bio-obscenity.

historygamer28 Sep 2021 6:15 a.m. PST

I think the point of companies like Old Glory and Sash and Saber not attending is that, for each figure company not attending, that is another reason for some not to attend. The loss of figure dealers attending over the years has been significant. Not ascribing blame, just sayin. :-)

I think that at least some dealers feel that the overall cost of travel, lodging, meals, etc., has reached a tipping point.

HMGS should think outside the box of simply offering the same thing over and over again. If they don't, at some point, someone will build a better mouse trap. :-)

oldnorthstate28 Sep 2021 7:41 a.m. PST

I think you are on the right track historygamer…

ARMY Strong28 Sep 2021 7:59 a.m. PST

I know many of the dealers that are struggling whether to go or not so many more may drop out but many decisions will depend on HMGS and money. I agree with historygamer the cost to attend a Con is getting too expensive for these guys many support because their love of the hobby and take a hit some it maybe a form of finical support for there families. There was always discussions on how to fix this like dealer hall should be free to enter etc.. HMGS bank account was vey healthy from when I looked last time not sure of it now but maybe a break to dealers should be considered once again. Some will say its about the gaming well that too has fallen off has anyone been to the Saturday night games more tables are open then filled. Sunday is a ghost town. So times are changing will we adjust or fade away?

Disco Joe28 Sep 2021 11:25 a.m. PST

"You know you were going to peruse their website before the con and maybe put together a pick up order."
That would be true if the website was up and operational. It has been down since September 2 as being worked on from what was posted. Hard to peruse something that isn't there.

HMS Exeter28 Sep 2021 2:05 p.m. PST

This one looks to be working. It is an unfamiliar format.

kcabai28 Sep 2021 2:18 p.m. PST

Russ, How about coming to Little Wars in 2022?

torokchar Supporting Member of TMP28 Sep 2021 3:37 p.m. PST

Come west young man (Russ) and visit us at MillenniumCon Texas!!

kcabai30 Sep 2021 7:53 a.m. PST

Russ, How about coming to Little Wars in 2022?

kcabai01 Oct 2021 9:22 a.m. PST

Connie, How about coming to Little Wars in 2022?

kcabai02 Oct 2021 3:21 p.m. PST

OG staff, How about coming to Little Wars in 2022?

kcabai04 Oct 2021 6:15 a.m. PST

Does anyone know if OG is shut down for vacation or something?

Double G Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2021 1:22 p.m. PST

"I think that at least some dealers feel that the overall cost of travel, lodging, meals, etc., has reached a tipping point."

Yes it has.

Not to speak for other dealers, as many of you know, my main product that I sell are prepainted 54mm/60mm toy soldiers, but I also sell Monday Knight Productions buildings, rivers and roads as well as 20mm metal figures from Newline Design, Britannia, SHQ, Battlefield Miniatures, Sentry Models, Shellhole Scenics, SGMM, Thoroughbred Miniatures, plus diecast vehicles and plastic ho/oo figures.

I also have been selling off a massive 20,000 figure 28mm collection and all the scenery and such that went with it for the wife of a friend of mine who passed away.

I have been very lucky and blessed to have so many people support me at the HMGS conventions and purchase all of my various offerings.

Over time, several arrangements I had folded either due to the manufacturer terminating the relationship or selling the company and the new owner not carrying forward the relationship, plus I have converted a large number of my show buyers into mail order customers. The major parts of my late friends collection have found new homes as well.

The last HMGS convention I attended was Cold Wars at the Host in 2019; that was the first convention I attended where I did not make a net profit; I actually lost money attending that one.

I became ill a few days before Historicon, which was moved to downtown Lancaster, so I had to bail out, I had a scheduling conflict and could not attend Fall In at the VFCC.

Then in 2020; COVID………………..

I have not attended a wargaming or toy soldier show/convention since November of 2019 and for 2020 and so far in 2021, my NET profit is up substantially, I had one of my best years ever from a net profit standpoint in 2020 as mail order/Ebay/Facebook/Pinterest sales exploded, same for 2021, my NET profit is tracking at 40% over 2020 so far as we creep into October.

Bottom line is times change and the way people shop changes; I noticed it truthfully the past few years I attended HMGS conventions, the crowd seemed down, specifically on Saturday, the famous "day trippers" who used to flock to the conventions for me at least were all but gone, Saturdays were the first day to take a hit for me, Sundays were a total waste of time for the most part.

Sad to say, but my days of attending HMGS conventions as a vendor may be over, I have no plans on going to Ocean City in the Spring or downtown Lancaster in the Summer, "maybe" Fall In at the VFCC in 2022, we'll see.

If one of the three ever lands at my favorite venue the Host, maybe one last hurrah for me, again we'll see.

It's been a ball, it's been a blast, I met a lot of great folks I normally would never have met under any other circumstances, many of whom I am blessed to call friends now, someone like me who's considered a "low level" dealer who sells mostly non wargaming related items and who takes two booths probably won't be missed.

It's a sign of the times, vendors in all collectible/hobby related businesses like me who used to attend a large number of conventions are reevaluating their entire marketing strategy, social media is king (well, maybe not today with Facebook being down), but it's one of the best ways to stay in touch with old customers and meet new ones vs taking the time and expense to travel to numerous shows.

All I can say is support the flagship dealers at the conventions as you never know when they will be gone and never come back.

kcabai05 Oct 2021 2:03 p.m. PST

Has anyone heard from Old Glory?

TRUgamer06 Oct 2021 8:21 a.m. PST

Based on OG's initial announcement their problem is employee staffing difficulties related to exhibiting at Historicon. This may logically extend to other shows throughout the country. Only they can confirm, but that's my take.


kcabai06 Oct 2021 10:07 a.m. PST


Thanks, I was wondering about seven months from now, April 2022.

shthar07 Oct 2021 7:43 p.m. PST

They do have a LOT of stuff to haul and setup.

kcabai08 Oct 2021 5:54 a.m. PST

They do not have to bring everything.

Personal logo jsmcc91 Supporting Member of TMP08 Oct 2021 6:29 a.m. PST


Logistically and financially it is becoming more difficult as a larger business to do tradeshows. With rising fuel costs, metal costs, truck rentals, lodging and food alone are making it not profitable to go to the shows. For OG alone, it is over 10 hours to get to Fall-In. What do you pick to take as a business for a trade show? It always happens you do not pick the right items for everyone. Unfortunately the wave of the future is online shopping.


BTCTerrainman Supporting Member of TMP08 Oct 2021 6:31 a.m. PST

The costs to attend a show for vendors have been going up for years. Couple that with extra production for a show, it can be pretty expensive. If OG brings just 3 of everything they make, that is a huge expense which includes metal, gas, electric, employee wages/time, taxes and opportunity costs (simply not responding to actual orders quickly). All of the above for speculative sales opportunities. Due to material cost rises, many firms only cast on demand rather than keeping large inventories gathering dust. (I have no detailed knowledge of OG, just spit-balling a bit).

I know the cost of metal has gone up significantly, and so has resin (resin costs have risen 45%-50% in the past year and mold rubber will be taking a major jump soon). So all of these extra costs have to now be considered, and we are not even factoring in travel and actual attendance costs at a show (and while you are away, you are not handling orders that are coming in further delaying those orders).

Each vendor will evaluate their model and decide what makes the most sense for their operation. Shows are no longer what they used to be, and the specter of attending shows during COVID is real as normal customer numbers can be affected (as was CW 2020).

kcabai08 Oct 2021 7:03 a.m. PST

As the Vendor Manager for the last 7 years, I am well aware of the issues that they face. I often work with them in trying to determine a potential product mix, based on our vendor population and show demographics. Our pricing is very competitive, with flexible exit times, payment schedules, manpower for loading and set up/take down, beverage services and other perqs.

There is no argument that online shopping has effected the cons, but the vendors are critical to the show's financials. We are always trying to reach a compromise that makes both groups happy.

Covid has had its impact. But after three shows there is data that is encouraging. The attendees that do brave the show, are often very good customers.

Martyn K08 Oct 2021 7:37 a.m. PST

Personally I make the majority of my figure purchases on-line. In part this is due to the vendors that I am currently purchasing from are European vendors that do not attend the show. But also it is because I have time to sit down and plan my army at home before pressing the purchase button.

I do make a number of small spot purchases from the convention. But I also use it as a chance to see some of the ranges that figure manufacturers have introduced. There have been many times that I have seen some figures at a show, gone home and over the course of the next year or two made online purchases from the vendor. Often these purchase quantities are much more than I would want to carry around at a show.

I suspect that I am not alone. The total value of a convention to a vendor is not just the sales that they make during the convention, but also the sales that are generated over the next few years – admittedly difficult to quantify.

I would not be surprised that as spending habits change to more online, that the vendors start using the show more as a showcase rather than for immediate sales.
This would mean that they would need to take less stock to a show. It may also mean that they display painted figures to show what can be achieved.

Vendors and HMGS are probably already considering how things will evolve over the next five or ten years.

historygamer08 Oct 2021 8:15 a.m. PST

I believe this idea was discussed some years ago between the then leadership of HMGS and the then vendors. Apparently, nothing came of it.

If HMGS were smart, they might consider just putting on an all-vendor show and not one that runs as long as the current cons either. Maybe a one or two day show, at best.

If HMGS didn't need to have as much space for the vendors at other shows, it would likely be able to reduce the size of the facility needed as well to host just games and a flea market.

Would that please everyone? No. But, you can please some of the people all of the time, etc., etc. And the fact is, it is getting harder and harder to get vendors to commit to such time and expense to attend the current HMGS cons.

Azure Gryphon08 Oct 2021 12:52 p.m. PST

As a vendor I think that using a convention as just a showcase is a potential loss. We bring as much product as we can fit to shows and considering a larger vehicle and more booth space in the future. People buy online, but sometimes forget when they get home. Easier to have it in your hand now. And we can ship nationally if you don't have room to take it in your bags from the show.

Over the last 3 HMGS shows we have made a profit on each, even Cold Wars last year. As for us a shorter vendor period is not desirable. We stick it out on the last day and make enough sales to be worth those few hours. We're there to provide product to customers and make money. Next year we plan to start hitting more of the regional shows even, as the connections made are worth the effort.

Double G Supporting Member of TMP08 Oct 2021 1:27 p.m. PST

"I believe this idea was discussed some years ago between the then leadership of HMGS and the then vendors. Apparently, nothing came of it.

If HMGS were smart, they might consider just putting on an all-vendor show and not one that runs as long as the current cons either. Maybe a one or two day show, at best.

Would that please everyone? No………………"

Yes it was.

And no, nothing came of it.

Just like attendees vote with their wallets, vendors vote with their feet; if less and less of them show up, the overall cost portion of a convention that they pay into decreases, so the attendees have to pay more to attend.

A one day shopping event; hmmmmmmmmmmm, sort of like Salute, the largest one day gaming event in the world, nothing but vendors and kick ass demo games put on by clubs to get people excited about the hobby……………

I'm not sure if an event like that would fly in the US; if you poll gamers, they come to conventions to socialize, game, shop the flea market…………oh and stop into the dealer hall on the way home Sunday to see if anyone is offering deals because "You don't want to lug that pack of figures all the way home do you?"

But wait; will there be a flea market? If not, Robert won't load up his covered wagon and head East……….;)………………….so no, it won't please everyone.

historygamer08 Oct 2021 1:30 p.m. PST

Yeah, what do the grandfather's of wargaming know, right?

Miss seeing you DoubleG. Hope you are well. :-)

Double G Supporting Member of TMP08 Oct 2021 2:44 p.m. PST

Nothing according to some.

I always wondered how a one day Salute type shopping only event would do here in the US; not sure it would be anymore more than a typical CW/Historicon/FI type dealer hall, I don't see large numbers of people willing to travel a good distance to attend, do you?

Salute is a whole other animal; you've got the cream of the crop regarding UK wargaming companies as well as from other parts of Europe, it's a longstanding event with a large following.

I don't think we could pull it off here.

Thanks for the kind words; I used to love attending the wargaming shows, a lot of items for me to buy for my collection in the dealer hall and flea market, but I've been balls to the wall for a solid year and a half with mail order/website/Facebook/Ebay/Pinterest/etc, etc, sales, business is booming, profitability with not having attended a show for two years vs gross sales is off the charts.

It's been eye opening frankly.

ARMY Strong08 Oct 2021 2:55 p.m. PST

If the BOD keeps picking lousy locations like King of Prussia and Ocean City MD they will put the last nail in the coffin. Lancaster is central to most gamers and vendors.

Martyn K08 Oct 2021 4:03 p.m. PST

Very interesting to get a vendor perspective. Thanks

historygamer08 Oct 2021 5:27 p.m. PST

Double G – You never know till you try. But I'm pretty sure I know where it's all headed if the current course is kept. Like any new thing, you'd have to give it a few years to see.

+1 to Army Strong.

snurl108 Oct 2021 8:31 p.m. PST

+1 to Army Strong.

kcabai09 Oct 2021 6:11 a.m. PST

Great responses!

Still waiting to hear from OG.

Azure, let me know if Little Wars 2022 might be an option.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP09 Oct 2021 9:07 a.m. PST

Double G, you must not let my lack of attendance discourage you. I certainly wouldn't let your absence keep me from enjoying a convention.

But before anyone sinks tens of thousands of dollars into SALUTE North America, I recommend they ask themselves why and how British and American conventions came to be different. My guess is miniature wargaming population density. A British gamer can expect a weekly game at his club, and a convention in day trip range almost every weekend, should he care to attend. I have to work hard to get a non-solo game a month, and day trip range is perhaps five conventions a year, most of which involve pretty stiff drives. That's not too far off the norm, I think.

Tell a bunch of HMGS (formerly East) regulars that you're thinking of having them travel the same distance and play no games, but they'll be permitted to buy the same stuff they can buy over the Net at the same price less postage (if you don't count the eight hour round trip) and see how many volunteers you get.

Double G Supporting Member of TMP09 Oct 2021 12:42 p.m. PST

"Double G, you must not let my lack of attendance discourage you."

It never has.

It never will.

"I certainly wouldn't let your absence keep me from enjoying a convention."

I guess I'll have to learn to live with the disappointment, but don't worry, I'll somehow find the strength to carry on knowing you'll enjoy yourself without me being there.

And color me shocked you think a Salute type event here in the US would not work.

Don't ever change Robert.

Azure Gryphon11 Oct 2021 7:04 a.m. PST

I'll drop an email about Little Wars for next year.

What are the dates?

kcabai11 Oct 2021 8:01 a.m. PST

Sounds great thanks.

Little Wars 2022 will be held from Thursday,
April 21 to Sunday April 24, 2022 at the
Sheraton Lisle Naperville Hotel (Illinois)

kcabai11 Oct 2021 8:09 a.m. PST

If someone could pass this on to OG,


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