Help support TMP


"Drones and Police/FBI" Topic


23 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please use the Complaint button (!) to report problems on the forums.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Ultramodern Warfare (2012-present) Message Board


Areas of Interest

Modern

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Link


Featured Showcase Article

Battlefield in a Box European Farmhouse

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian expands his 15mm modern building collection.


Featured Profile Article

Checking Out a Boardgame, Episode II

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian looks for scenario material in a World War IV boardgame.


Current Poll


391 hits since 10 Sep 2021
©1994-2021 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP10 Sep 2021 4:39 p.m. PST

Not exactly wargaming, I know, but there are certainly some gangster shoot-em'ups that get gamed.

So, how much of a presence in an ultra modern cops n robbers game? What can and can't they accomplish?

Wargamer Blue10 Sep 2021 7:35 p.m. PST

We use them all the time at work but not for killing if that's what you are asking? We actually have a unit similar to canine that patrol with their drones. They attend a scene and deploy from their vehicles. Surveillance, land searches,, documenting crime and crash scenes, sniffing out drug houses. Crowd control. Their use is unlimited, Great kit.

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP10 Sep 2021 7:47 p.m. PST

Unlimited? In a crowded urban area? How's that possible?

Prince Alberts Revenge10 Sep 2021 8:11 p.m. PST

Well if you look at what they are used for in commercial applications and apply them for law enforcement you can get a good idea. Also think about what a law enforcement helicopter can accomplish and you can think of what a drone can also provide for law enforcement.

Amplified optics, night vision/infra red, tracking movement, reconnaissance into inaccessible areas, etc. Hope this helps.

Wargamer Blue10 Sep 2021 8:55 p.m. PST

I don't understand what you are asking Gorgrat?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP10 Sep 2021 10:00 p.m. PST

Drones make the whole situation into a video game.

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP11 Sep 2021 8:49 a.m. PST

Wargamer Blue

Okay. Say a typical bank or jewelry store robbery. Quick hold up, crowded city. Robber or robbers disperse into the crowd, or go in and out of office buildings in multiple directions. What use is a drone?

Sure, I can understand it if it's a John Dillinger operation, but who robs banks like that anymore?

Not trying to be a wise acre. Obviously they must help, or police wouldn't use them, but I don't understand hoe?

Most importantly, of course, how would you simulate this in gaming? Just some random events table that said something like, "On a 6, the drone shows up. Determine randomly which of your thugs it tracks."

Doesn't sound like much fun.

Once more, not trying to argue for the sake of it. I just don't get it.

Legion 4 In the TMP Dawghouse11 Sep 2021 10:28 a.m. PST

Well new tech like this should be available to LEOs. Would save LEO lives and maybe see a crime before it happens. If you look at the crime going in big cities this may give them the edge.

Yes they can be used as recon … but will they have to be armed as well? To really be effective stopping violent crimes. But they you have the same situation the military has … CD …

As yes when I say armed I'm not talking about Hellfire missiles. Some much lighter weapons maybe e.g. small arms …

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP11 Sep 2021 11:12 a.m. PST

In the near future cooperative rules Hardwired, hostile security forces spawn at points on the board and are of varying quality levels. I use drones from Litko as the lowest level hostiles and sometimes they are armed and sometimes they just track my team to call in better security level forces.

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP11 Sep 2021 11:30 a.m. PST

Legion 4

Anything that can be armed with small arms can be armed with heavier stuff too. That doesn't sit well with me, nor, I think, with most people.

Not thinking about nonsense like Terminators wiping out humanity, but robots with guns can too easily harm innocent civilians.

Also, there is the fact that you don't want killing to become too impersonal. If a man has to pull the trigger, there's at least the chance he'll hold back if the situation has a bad situation, like hostages. Machines have fewer compunctions

Paul Collins

Drones from Litko sound cool! Got a link?

Prince Alberts Revenge11 Sep 2021 11:34 a.m. PST

In your scenario of a jewellery store robbery where the bad guys scatter…drones could be used to look for individuals matching the description of the suspects in the crowd or exhibiting erratic behavior.

I'm not sure they would be deployed in that way however. Now if there was a barricade situation then perhaps a drone could be used to reconnoiter where the bad guys are positioned to avoid ambush.

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP11 Sep 2021 1:03 p.m. PST

Ask and ye shall receive

link

Not the most detailed, but work out perfect for my needs at a good price.

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP11 Sep 2021 2:33 p.m. PST

👍👍👍

Stryderg11 Sep 2021 2:56 p.m. PST

Drones could be used as a force multiplier. Thugs scatter, police block off 6 intersections. Problem is, they need to block off 10. Drones go to the other 4 and start running facial recognition on anyone they see. One or two thugs might skip away, but the police can hunt them down later.

Legion 4 In the TMP Dawghouse11 Sep 2021 5:26 p.m. PST

Anything that can be armed with small arms can be armed with heavier stuff too. That doesn't sit well with me, nor, I think, with most people.
Of course they could be armed with larger ordinance. But would probably require a larger drone. So you won't be packing Hellfires as I said.

Drones in Law enforcement will most likely be used for recon. But in some situations you may have a shooter on the loose or a sniper on the roof, etc. The quickest way to make him/her no longer a threat would be to use surgically placed round(s).

If that shooter/sniper would kill your friends or family would that sit right with you and the others killed? If you knew there was tech to save innocent lives but deny it's use. Now that does not sit right with me … not at all.

robots with guns can too easily harm innocent civilians.
You mean like terrorists/jihadis or criminals do. Have you seen the number of shootings going on in our bigger cities in the past 6 months or so ? A lot of innocents have been killed plus in may cases children. Those stories, names & numbers are in the media I watch. Or one can look it up on the net.

Also, there is the fact that you don't want killing to become too impersonal.
Yet criminals in e.g. Chicago or NYC do it almost daily.
If a man has to pull the trigger, there's at least the chance he'll hold back if the situation has a bad situation, like hostages.
You realize LEO snipers are trained to engage targets in that type of situation. If they don't have a good shot they won't take it. Drones/AI can be taught the same. You realize machines do very delicate surgeries. It is advertised all the time. Robots, Drones, AI, etc. would be more accurate than humans.

But do you know how drones work? The gunner will not engage the target unless he/she gets the green light from higher most of the time. Drones are not autonomous. Of courses with high tech AI it could be if it isn't already? As we know tech advances very quickly these days.

I sent my soldiers to the Sniper school on post at Ft. Benning, GA as often as I could. There're being good shooters could save our lives at times. Many Law Enforcement agencies do the same. And again anything with high tech AI, it can be programmed to do this was as well. Or at least acquire the the target waiting for the drone gunner to get the word to service the target.

Machines have fewer compunctions
Only if they are programmed to be that way. And obviously you wouldn't use shooter drones probably anymore than snipers. But drones can go places people can't. Drones primarily would be used for recon. And in many cases they are already.

But just like with military drones, e.g. Predator or Reaper. The Drone does not take the shot unless the gunner miles away gets the go ahead. In reality armed law enforcement drones would work the same. Even if AI could decide to take the shot. The drone gunner once he gets the go ahead he/she will be in effect "pulling the trigger".

Wargamer Blue11 Sep 2021 5:53 p.m. PST

@Gorgat. "Okay. Say a typical bank or jewelry store robbery. Quick hold up, crowded city. Robber or robbers disperse into the crowd, or go in and out of office buildings in multiple directions. What use is a drone?"

The area will be locked down. Drones help with that. Crooks aren't going anywhere. There is so much CCTV surveillance now in any shopping precinct now, hidden movement would need to be well planned. If they get in car. The jobs more easier.

In a gaming situation as described, there's no roll for drones to show up. They are turning up, probably between two and four in my area for such a serious incident. I would use them as scenics, holding the outer lockdown zone. As you are right, in an urban response in a shopping area they will no good for looking for clothing and facial recognition, but I am assuming the crooks are real world and would disguise themselves and dump the clothes they are wearing immediately under cover.

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2021 6:50 p.m. PST

Legion 4 and Wargamer Blue

Fascinating, When you say any shopping precinct though, that has to be confined to major cities, I would think.

Also I'm not sure where that leaves us. As far as resources are concerned. When you say the area will be locked down, doesn't that assumes an enormous number of police.

As with all wargaming, it is a mistake to assume one weapons system or tactic has absolute superiority?

I think you guys are assuming a lot. After all, just like the US doesn't win every battle or war (witness the present debacle) successful bank robberies and jewel heists still take place.

Or is there an element I'm missing?

Legion 4 In the TMP Dawghouse13 Sep 2021 9:01 a.m. PST

Fascinating,
Hyperbole ?


When you say any shopping precinct though, that has to be confined to major cities, I would think.
Yes drones are very useful for both recon and if need be direct action.

But we see in other environs Drones are useful too. Closed, Mixed & Open terrain.

Also I'm not sure where that leaves us. As far as resources are concerned. When you say the area will be locked down, doesn't that assumes an enormous number of police.
That is why we have NGs & Fed LEO.

it is a mistake to assume one weapons system or tactic has absolute superiority?
It is pretty much not always the case. That is why we fight Combined Arms. Drones are just part of the Tm. You can say the same with drone use for LEOs. They don't always have to use drones. But IMO they are great for Recon. For both LEOs and the Military. If you can see the "threat/perp/target" and they can't see you … that is a clear advantage.

I think you guys are assuming a lot. After all, just like the US doesn't win every battle or war
I don't see why you would say that? I'm only assuming/know that the Drone is part of the Combined Arms Team. Just like Infantry, Tanks, FA, Gunships, CAS, etc., and now drones. And yes, today the definition of winning a war is not as it was in the past.

(witness the present debacle)
Don't get me started ! Some at the top should look for another job …

Or is there an element I'm missing?
After all we posted, I don't know what there is to miss ? Drones are here to stay and the tech only gets better. And LEOs, military & some of our enemies have them or will.

E.g. if the Taliban/AQ, ISIS, etc., does not have'm … they will. Probably from China, Putin, Iran, etc.

Of course ISIS-K will just buy'm …

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP14 Sep 2021 5:38 a.m. PST

Not hyperbole, nor sarcasm either. I really appreciate the contributions.

But, while you quote me extensively, the central point was that it must be game able, since to this day, banks and jewelry stores still get knocked over, even in the most densely populated cities like New York, Atlanta, L.A., etc.

This had to mean that these technologies are not infallible.

Murvihill14 Sep 2021 6:11 a.m. PST

Pair it up with cameras at every intersection, pointing in all directions. Jewelry store robbers tagged upon exit, followed electronically using corner cameras, drones to track the ones running down alleys and areas outside camera range.
If you wanted to game it the good guy would set up his cameras, robbers make a plan, random placement of drones and police, execute plan.

Legion 4 In the TMP Dawghouse14 Sep 2021 7:54 a.m. PST

Not hyperbole, nor sarcasm either. I really appreciate the contributions.
I thought so … but just making sure in my mind.

This had to mean that these technologies are not infallible.
Nor are humans … Drones can again see what we can't … go places we can't. Like any weapons system it has to be use properly. But again IMO for LEO to use in recon will be it's primary function. But sometimes an armed drone can take out the shooter, sniper, bomber, etc. And save innocent lives.

Gorgrat Supporting Member of TMP14 Sep 2021 3:54 p.m. PST

Mulvihill and Legion 4

Both of you guys seem to be saying that this would be an infallible technology if we had enough of them.

Bit that, of course, is itself a technological limitation. That we can't build them cheaply enough to put them absolutely everywhere means that the technology is not infallible.

We either need them to be cheaper, or more effective for the number we can afford.

Legion 4 In the TMP Dawghouse14 Sep 2021 4:14 p.m. PST

We already have fairly inexpensive drones LEO are using now for recon. As does the military, AFAIK.

Again you understand for drones to take the shot it has to get the green light from it's gunner. Not in the drone, of course, then it won't be a drone.

Now you say the tech is not there yet for a drone to be autonomous. AFAIK it isn't but that is probably be very classified. I have never been to Area 51, DARPA, etc., either.

Cheap or not, recon drones are in use now with LEOs & the military. And I'm sure many in many nations are working on autonomous systems including attack drones. Infallible or not it's going to happen if it already has not. I'm sure the PRC/CCP and Putin's Russia are working on them or have them already.

Cheaper ? That would be nice… we do have the $ if the Gov't stops using it on their pet projects. E.g. letting millions of illegal aliens coming across the Southern border for a start. Someone has to pay for these illegal mouths to feed, house, cloth, meds, etc., etc.

Got nothing against these people, they just need to do it legally like my and many others ancestors did.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.