"Blitzkrieg Minis Sherman modification?" Topic

I'm looking for a correct Sherman for 70th Tank Battalion at Normandy. The pictures I have seen are welded hulls. Blitzkrieg Miniatures' Sherman M4A1 have a one-piece cast hull I believe. But the M4A3E8 has the welded hull. Would I be OK putting the M4A1 turret on the M4A3E8?

link

Would I be OK…

I will shy away from suggesting what you may or may not want to do. But if it were me I would not pursue that combination.

My reasoning is based on reasonable (not TOO nit-picky, I hope) levels of historical accuracy.

The key visual recognition factors you want for a D-Day / Normandy Campaign "welded hull" Sherman tank would be:

- Welded hull (well duh!).
The Sherman variant that these guys would have come ashore with would have been mid-production M4 75mm Shermans (I say M4 here as distinct from M4A1, M4A2, M4A3 etc.). The M4 had a welded hull like the M4A3. But it has minor differences from the M4A3 in the engine deck and rear hull / exhaust. Let's say for now we accept those differences here and say welded hull is good enough.

- Applique Armor.
"Mid production" implies that these tanks would almost certainly have had applique armor plates on the hull sides. Maybe you can excuse that away saying they received the upgrade kits but didn't apply them? Or you can manage a big of kit-bashing yourself (should be easily enough done with some card stock or plastic sheet, so long as you are not building whole companies of them).

- Widened gun mantlet.
"Mid production" also implies a mid-production turret. Unhappily the turret on the M4A1 model appears to be an early-production turret, with the narrow M34 gun mantlet. You want mid-war production with the widened M34A1 gun mantlet. It is possible to kit-bash it, but that's a bit more intricate. Also you probably want applique armor on the left turret "chin". This was part of the applique kit provided to units in-theater, but was not always installed. Newer production turrets had the castings thickened and did not need the applique on the turret chin. The roof hatches on the M4A1 turret should be OK for Normandy timeframe (the loader's hatch was being built-in by this time, but these guys probably would have 3Q or 4Q 1943 production tanks).

- VVS suspension.
The suspension on an E8 is HVSS (Horizontal Volute Springs), and for an M4 75mm tank you want VSS (Vertical Volute Springs). So you have the wrong bogie carriages, you have double wheels (where you want single wheels), and you have a wide track (where you want a narrower track).

- Straight vertical hull side.
Perhaps most noticeably, on any E8 Sherman have an added "shelf" on the hull sides that extends outwards to cover the top of those wider tracks.

The combination of the bogies and the shelf are very distinctive visual cues that this is a late-production Sherman. It would not have been seen in ETO until 4Q 1944 or 1Q1945.

So for me it would not do. But your tankage may vary. Do as pleases you, not as pleases me (or anyone else).

Hope that helps.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Would like to add a further question about US Army sherman's for Normandy campaign. I have the Rubicon 1/56th M4 kit and it has the option of a high bustle turret or a low one, and large hatches on the hull or small hatches. The instructions seem to suggest that the high bustle and large hatches are only for the 105 version. Is it possible the m4 75s in Normandy would have the high bustle turretand/or the large hull hatches?

Thanks

Sauve qui peut

This site might be useful.

theshermantank.com

Looks like a lot of information on there, I've only had a quick squiz at it.

Thanks much

…a further question about US Army sherman's for Normandy campaign. … Is it possible the m4 75s in Normandy would have the high bustle turretand/or the large hull hatches?

The high-bustle turret was developed specifically for the large-hatch / single slope hull modification. Once the driver and co-driver hatches were enlarged they could not be opened with the turret reversed, which would have reduced survivability in the case of a vehicle fire when the turret was traversed. So the bustle was raised to provide clearance for the larger hatches.

The Rubicon guidance is pretty good on this. Per my readings all production deliver of M4 105mm Shermans had large-hatch hulls, and so also had raised turret bustles.

But I have seen photos of Shermans with small hatch hulls that also had raised bustle turrets. Turret production was independent of hull production, and there was no reason not to use newer high-bustle turrets with older small hatch hulls if those were the components on hand at time of general assembly.

KM's link is a good one. Very comprehensive info there for those who wish to explore the details of Shermanisms.

The front picture on that site is actually a very good presentation of the M4 version that would have been expected to roll ashore on D-Day. You can see:
1) It is an M4. Clearly a welded hull (sharp corners and edges, not cast rounded edges). The engines they have pulled and are installing are Wright radials.
2) It is a small hatch hull. See the bulges for the driver and co-driver.
3) It has VVS suspsension.
4) It has applique armor.
5) It has a low-bustle turret.

All in all a prime example of exactly the tank we are describing. A great illustration for this discussion.

The other common Sherman in US forces on D-Day would have been the cast-hull M4A1, also with small hatch hulls, the same turret, and with applique armor.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Great. Thanks so much for the info guys. Really helpful.

Sauve qui peaut