"latest from a Brit source" Topic

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Two Congressmen, one Dem and one Rep, both veterans, flew into Kabul to check things out.

"Two US military vets who now serve as congressmen flew unannounced into Afghanistan to monitor the on going evacuation efforts as they called on President Joe Biden to extend the US withdrawal deadline past August 31.

Rep. Seth Moulton, a Democrat from Massachusetts, and Rep. Peter Meijer, a Republican from Michigan, flew in and out of Kabul airport on Tuesday, with both men adding that they boarded return flights with empty seats so as not to take away space from fleeing Americans and Afghans.

They appeared to condemn Joe Biden over his chaotic withdrawal from the war-torn country, and predicted the US would not be able to airlift everyone eligible to leave Afghanistan on time. "

Never too busy to grandstand.

But the move left the State Department, Defense Department and White House officials furious, the Associated Press reported, as it was done without coordination with diplomats or military commanders directing the evacuation.

Officials said they also had to divert resources away from the evacuation effort to provide security and information for the congressmen.

Meijer served in Iraq and later did humanitarian related work with a nongovernmental organization in Afghanistan, delivering emergency assistance to aid workers after kidnappings and targeted killings.

Moulton served in the Marine Corps in Iraq and served four tours of duty as an infantry officer. He later worked to establish an independent media in central Iraq and became the host of the Moulton & Mohammed television show.

Moulton shared a tweet of the ongoing evacuation at the airport, calling the desperate scramble at Kabul 'raw and visceral.'

Grandstanding, maybe, but only a fool would trust what the people responsible for this debacle are now telling us about it. "Run and find out" is a good motto. And the mongooses will find plenty of cobras in Kabul.

but only a fool would trust what the people responsible for this debacle

Like the last 4 administrations? The folks that got us in and refused to leave in 2002/2003. The folks who said we'd leave after OBL got killed in 2011? The folks that negotiated with a bunch of psychotic 7th century troglodytes and signed an agreement to leave on May 1 and whined, as late as a month ago, about not withdrawing on May 1 or the folks that acted surprised when the jobs program known as the ANA collapsed instantly?

McK, okay, so the point is stronger; someone needs to go and see for themselves.

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Both Congressmen are on the Armed Forces committee.

Predictably, chaos ensued.

Obviously those Congressmen had no trust in

Speaking as a student of the American system, it is good to see institutional checks and balances in play. They have been muted or non-existent in a hyper-partisan environment for too long. Congress needs to reassert some control over the executive, even if both are controlled by the same party. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It's NOT "grandstanding" when the current administration won't provide ANY info on the major issues at hand, e.g.:

1. how many Americans are in Afghanistan – they have those numbers, since they track passports, etc.;

2. how many Americans have been evacuated from Afghanistan – again, they have those numbers, and most of the tens of thousands of people that they claim have been evacuated are NOT Americans, with the latter running less than 10% of the total on outbound flights;

3. and they make ridiculous claims, like NO ONE is having any difficulty getting to Kabul's airport, and there are no Al Qaeda members in Afghanistan.

Also, it's just ridiculous that they have agreed to the Tali's deadline, without doing much of anything to try to rescue the 10,000 – 15,000+ Americans "stranded" (yes I used that word too, since it is accurate and honest) in Afghanistan.

The US Marines, and/or others should be sent back in to Kabul's airport to help the forces there go out into the neighborhoods, knock on doors, and rescue American citizens and others from the murderous barbarians in country there.

Better yet, retake the other airport, evacuate people from there, insert jets and helos back on site, and use them to threaten the enemy, and protect our troops and civilians like should have been done in the first place, before evacuating it in a rush, in the dark of night.

I DO note that at least it IS "Bi-partisan Grandstanding" which is refreshing for a change, if you must label it that.

Personally, I don't, even though it IS proving to be embarrassing to the current regime in power.

If American citizens are abandoned by the present administration, I hope that impeachment deliberations ensue shortly afterwards for dereliction of duty by the current CiC, who I've labeled the WIC (and no, that doesn't stand for Women, Infants, and Children).

There is this thing called Congressional Oversight.
That means that Congress can investigate where the money that they appropriate is going.
And they can also investigate for the purpose of current and future legislation.

They're not out of line in the least. In fact they are fulfilling their Constitutional duty.

25 Aug 2021 8:36 a.m. PST
But the move left the State Department, Defense Department and White House officials furious…

I would imagine so. Nobody likes having their staggering incompetence showcased. Aw, their poor fragile egos.

EDIT: I am of course referring to top officials, the Baghdad Bobs.
I'm not referring to the actual personnel who are ably performing a thankless job to the best of their abilities.

>>>>>how many Americans are in Afghanistan

If you don't give a number you can then claim that all Americans have been evacuated any time you deem it politically expedient.

They took two seats on the return flight that could have gone to people who needed them.

They learned nothing that could not have been known from the public media.

They cannot offer any firm recommedations on future actions based on their visit.

I suspect their motives were very self-serving and aimed at their future campaign for office nothing more.

It is a meaningless trip.

To my knowledge, Thresher, one cannot know how many were "stranded" until we see the results of the airlift which still has several days to go. I suspect if there are appreciable numbers the Administration will extend the effort into September as it has said it will. ( not stating firmly we will do this has potentially bought several days of Taliban neutrality instead of immediately ginning them up.) We also seem to have no firm data on how many are there.

Finally, the word "regime" denotes an authoritarian government, this administration was duly elected and is obviously not authoritarian.

If the Congress looked the other way from blatant acts of illegality, misjudgment, and misuse of office in the last administration, I doubt very much if much will come of this, especially if it doesn't lead to further loss of American lives. In six months it's not a factor in the political arena, because Americans truly don't give a damn about Afghanistan, and haven't for years.

I have planned and carried out CODEL visits overseas. They are a giant consumer of time and attention, both of which are probably in short supply in Kabul right now. The idea that they are a necessary "oversight function" is ludicrous under current conditions: if you don't know what's going on in Kabul, it can't be for want of information from a wide range of sources other than the government.

What they DID gain, OTOH, is probably priceless election footage which will allow them to run away from this disaster (however they voted in the past) and the street-cred tag line our narcissistic age prizes so highly.

But not everything about CODELs is bad. I DID once get to watch a UH-60 crew make the late unlamented Joe Moakley toss his cookies after listening to him badmouth his country to a field full of foreigners. It was worth every beer I had to buy them.

It is a regime.

And no, we will not know how many americans were there when we see how many are brought out. That is the regime's hoped-for illusion.

9 pound, yes, having the boss looking on is always a nuisance. I used to hate parents day at school. Accountability sucks.

They reported the return flight had empty seats.

I don't remember the Trump administration stranding thousands of Americans in enemy territory. An enemy with barbaric tendencies no less. No matter how one tries to gloss over this mess, this was a miscalculation on Biden's part of epic proportions and will not be easily forgotten. The President has shown the world just how incredibly weak and feeble he actually is.

And we will not forget.

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"If the WSJ is right that Friday is the true deadline for evacuating Afghans, we're left to wonder what the scene at the airport will look like between Saturday and Tuesday, once it dawns on the people waiting outside that all hope of getting out is lost."

If there's an accountability moment, it's not going to come because two back-bench congressmen took a 24 hour disaster tour of Kabul Airport. It's going to come because the magnitude of this is so clearly apparent to everyone that the government can't hide it, and the media won't cover for them. It's too soon to tell whether we're going to get it, because it's not clear that the disaster is done unfolding. If things don't get much worse, they might still be able to ride this out. If things go sideways, though, I would expect there will be a reckoning.

Even CNN has thrown this administration under the bus.

My fear is that the last planes trying to take off will be greeted by AA fire from captured weapons, manned by ISIS.
I pray I'm wrong.

Impeachment is one of those "be careful what you wish for" things. Look at who is constitutionally next in line.
Those "reinstatement" opium smokers are not credible.

No, we are stuck with Joe and Kamala for three more years. And the worst is yet to come, as China and Russia and the Norks and Iran see our weakness. One of them will do something we will HAVE to respond to, and the weakness of our Woke military will become apparent. Be afraid.

Possibilities include the loss of Taiwan, a rearmed nuclear Japan, a nuclear war between Pakistan and India, a nuclear assault on Israel . . . .

They took two seats on the return flight that could have gone to people who needed them.

They learned nothing that could not have been known from the public media.

They cannot offer any firm recommedations on future actions based on their visit.

I suspect their motives were very self-serving and aimed at their future campaign for office nothing more.

It is a meaningless trip.

Formatted as obvious talking points supporting the current gaslighting and preceding the inevitable cover up.

Yes, but i'm not sure this one CAN be covered up. And for sure not if/when it gets worse. A years-long hostage crisis will turn Biden into Carter II.

Accountability can take a lot of forms, and there's obviously a need for it at State, DoD, and CIA, all of whom look like they were caught badly off guard.

Yes, but i'm not sure this one CAN be covered up.

They never seem to disappoint in that regard.

Guys, get your shorts in a knot, but it is not certain what the outcome will be, other than our exit from Afghanistan, which a high number of American strongly support-nearly 2/3rds. For political reasons I'm sure many of you are hoping for the worst, but it may not happen that way.

Right now the Taliban is actually providing assistance in extricating Americans, and in thwarting the Isis contingents, whom they hate as much as anyone. Other than an occasional gun fight, which is to be expected with so many armed men running about, no American lives have been Lost.

No cover up necessary since there's plenty of blame to go around, including 20 years of "nation building"; The Trump Pompeo agreement which triggered a lot of the Afghan Army trading guns for amnesty, and the final reality check on a bad long term policy was going to happen sooner or later. Sooner may be better.

Few, if any, extrications from nation building have ever gone well. England from India or Palestine, us from Viet Nam and Iraq.

If Biden gets the US and it's allies out with minimum casualties ( say fewer than the number lost there during our occupation per year) the door may just swing back to hit you on the ass. You all will have to move on to a new conspiracy theory about what really happened! The intelligence service will have a thorough review of its estimates, and I hope the next time someone suggests remaking a semi-medieval country with a different religion and social mores into downtown Dubuque, Iowa, that all you guys will say NO!

Concern for the lives of American citizens imperiled abroad is not hoping for the worst. What kind of ghoul assumes that of anyone?

Then express it that way, rather than a diatribe against an Administration.

Bottom line IMO the leadership from the very top has again made a mess of things … again. We will get all our people out. Some without the gov't's help. Regardless … this operation is a massive cluster. And there is no one to blame but those at the very top …

Once this mess is all over … I think Congress should look at the 25th Amendment …

Choctaw & doc mcb +1

Then express it that way, rather than a diatribe against an Administration.

I just did and thanks for confirming.

According to WAPO, Sec..Blinken announced that, as of today fewer than 1500 Americans, other than military, remain in Afghanistan. The State Department is in close contact with 500 at this point and seeking contact with fewer than 1000 to implement their removal.

Much remains to be seen, yet that number is very doable in the remaining time. The allies have been proceeding well with a far lower number in country. The remaining Americans seem to be divided between a few businessmen and larger numbers of dual citizenship people visiting relatives in country. The fuzziness of the final number is because many of the latter group may have already returned to the US either earlier or by private means.

Legion 4

Do you really believe that all the conditions that brought this on, the primary one being the collapse of the government and the army,happened in just the last six months? The Pompeo Agreements were set in January, and all evidence is that the army began accelerating selling its arms to the Taliban for amnesty from reprisals over the last six months. The deadlines of the Pompeo agreements were set in January for May! The Army units hadn't been paid in some cases for nearly a year! Trump wanted to lower US forces to 2500 in May!

The present administration has been trying to build a lifeboat while the ship is sinking, and noticing the lifeboat davits are empty!

This ending has been underway for over a decade, probably longer, and even with yet another surge could not have been stopped, just slowed down.
One thing for sure, we will not be in Afghanistan with land forces next year! Most wars of this type end just this way.

I agree that both parties, or both halves of our uniiparty, share blame. The regime is question is the self-anointed "elite" who man the permanent government, which manipulates or ignores the people and their representatives. We shall see if they can ride out this tsunami of their own making.

Doc, this elite thing you express has a lot to do with country mouse vs city mouse attitudes that have been around ever since the US was created.

In this case, it's a bit muddled with hinterland defense jobs, excessive patriotic fervor, and distrust of professionals,unless they're farmers.

The elite you rail against is hardly monolithic, and ranges from many excellent people that actually know what they're talking about, to opportunists who know how to sir up the town meetings!

In fact, one should be very careful to delineate exactly which elite you object to, as there are many, and some you probably support. Certainly a universal distrust of the educated, experienced, and trained citizen is not going to work out well.

Do you really believe that all the conditions that brought this on, the primary one being the collapse of the government and the army,happened in just the last six months?

This evac mission was very poorly handled. From planning thru execution. As always the troops on the ground are put in a position they should never have been. They are doing their jobs above & beyond… again.

Bagram should have never been abandoned. I shouldn't have to explain all the reasons.

Troops were removed before the non-combatants … that makes no sense at all.

Then had to go back in to try to evac all of the civilians.

And since Bagram with two runway was abandoned. Instead of having both the Kabul Airport & Bagram. We only have the one.

Blaming the last Admin. for this mess is not at all reasonable.

Bagram was shutdown under this admin.

This admin pulled the troops out before the civilians …
then had to send many back …

Those are facts … As I said I do know something about military air ops, etc. This is a mess beyond all recognition.

doc mcb +1 again …

An interesting article by an Afghan journalist on the BBC website concerning the Afghan war and the missed opportunities. The politicians have a lot to answer for on this unholy mess link

Legion, you give great weight to the abandonment of Bagram, but one thing it did do was shrink the defense perimeter since it's always easier to defend a smaller perimeter. Not much was lost since Kabul is much easier to defend and much closer to the bulk of remaining Americans since it was the seat of government. It also provided a firm illustration to the Taliban that' we were, indeed, leaving. That may have facilitated the present unofficial cease fire with the Taliban. The troops were relocated, including some truly sensitive materials, to establish a firmer base for the remaining forces. It is interesting that the remaining civilians were evacuated.

BTW, for all the hue and cry, over 80,000 individuals have been evacuated. Only about 1500 American Civilians remain. No US losses. If they pull this off without excessive US loss of life this might end up being the best possible "bad" end to a very bad US policy.

Why are there any American civilians there at all? The original agreement was that we would be gone in May. Biden extended the pullout by a few months but everyone knew it was coming. Those civilians should have left long before that. So now we are expending a lot of money, effort and perhaps military lives to get them out. Saving people too stupid to save themselves in my opinion.

Machine, Most of them are dual nationals visiting family- maybe for the last time. It seems logical they would have cleared out earlier, but people are not always logical, and, of course, can let hope overcome reason.

In any case, they are not directly controlled by the US government, nor were they required to report to them on their actions.

Hence, the vagueness of the number involved. Some may, indeed, choose to stay.

"In any case, they are not directly controlled by the US government, nor were they required to report to them on their actions."
Exactly. And now we are obligated to try and get them out without knowing how many there are or where they are. Can we get them all? I seriously doubt it. The right wing echo chamber says we have abandoned them when in reality it was their choice to be there. I sincerely hope we can get them all out but I don't think that will be the case.

Of those 80,000 evacuated fewer than 5k are Americans.

I am glad this thread will last. WE shall be able to see in a few weeks or months whose sense of things is more realistic.

I think if we can be certain that any person is there, and where they are located, we will make an effort to get them. I think the chances are good that we will get them out , and in some cases, the Taliban has actually helped. In other cases, the lack of a central information point has made everyone's efforts more difficult.

I also think there will be a number of actions that will only be known after the completion of the mission.

This has the makings of the largest airlift rescue in history.

I wouldn't call it a rescue. Most of it seems to be free-for-all immigration plan.

It's on par with the European immigration crisis – literally hundreds of thousands of people trying to get out of a third world country because the news on the street is the just turn up to the airport and the US flies them out.

I'm sure if you did the same thing in the rest of the third world, the C-17s and C-130s would be overflowing with people as well be it Lagos or Islamabad or Manilla or Lima.

The new model is "don't help develop your own country, go to the west."

This is why many Eastern European countries are facing demographic collapse in the medium to long term despite being part of EU (eg Baltics, Romania, Croatia or Bulgaria).