"Failure of global war on terror" Topic

So according to you neither westerners nor muslims don't understand Islam. Only you know Islam.

No. You have distorted my comments, as always.

True Muslims understand Islam very well. Taliban, AQ, ISIS and Salafism/Wahhabism have distorted and polluted many Islamic doctrines. They do not understand the essence of Islam.

They simply don't openly acknowledge their sexuality (like in west up to 1980s or later).

Well, the Islamic countries in which that situation exists have to implement their own reforms in order to achieve a respectful social coexistence. The solution is to revert to original Islamic values of tolerance.

Western countries, in the same way, should implement their own reforms in order to reduce all their social problems and imbalances.

Again, Western countries should deal with their own social imbalances and injustices before accusing other cultures and civilizations.

AGAIN YOU IGNORE THE REALITY ON THE GROUND

What reality? The ‘reality' made up by dishonest journalists and Western mass media?

Do you really think that, in countries such as Morocco or Malaysia, atheists and apostates are routinely murdered during everyday life? Are you aware of your absurdity?

If you really believe your own paranoia, you probably suffer from craziness or other mental disease.

and ignore 1300 years of Islamic written legal documentation, religious interpretation and practice.

No, you really ignore them because you have not studied from primary and secondary Islamic sources. You prefer Western tabloids and outdated Western authors who never used Islamic sources and who cannot read Arabic language.

And in fact you're actually disregarding whole heaps of written Islamic law, doctrine etc that does specify murder and amputation of limbs and domestic violence because they don't suit your narrative.

No, you are wrong again. There are many different legal codes in Islamic countries, many different Fiqh and Hudud, because Islam is extremely diverse. You can find harsh punishments (distorted and fake Fiqh and Hudud) in The Taliban, AQ, ISIS and some Salafist/Wahhabi groups, but not in most Islamic countries.

Do you think that most Islamic cities are full of people with amputated limbs walking down the streets?
That is another absurd paranoia.

hence killing adulterers is acceptable practice in both Sunni KSA and Shia Iran.

Maybe in KSA and Iran, but not in most Islamic countries. And currently, at least in Iran, those death sentences are not carried out.

So you're saying that people in Pakistan or Turkey or Egypt have better living standards than westerners in Europe, USA or Australia/New Zealand?!?

It depends on your concept of ‘living standards'. Other cultures and civilizations have other different concepts and values, not just material wellness or consumerism. They do not sacrifice everything in the name of neurotic consumerism and schizophrenic materialism.

‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God'. Matthew 4:4

If indeed life was so super awesome in Pakistan or Afghanistan or Egypt or Mauritania, then why the hell are so many Muslims emigrating to west?!?

Due to worldwide economic imbalances (Neo-colonialism and new patterns of dependency, including Western funds for financing corrupt governments).

And if it's so super awesome why are so many disenfranchised young men being drawn to fight for ISIS or whatever local Islamist terror groups?

And many other ‘disenfranchised' young men (the majority) are not interested in fighting for ISIS or other terrorist groups. Otherwise ISIS army would be composed by millions of soldiers. Please, stop writing absurdities.

Poverty or disenfranchisement are not the only ones causes. There are many other causes. It is a complex phenomenon.

There are many impoverished people (most of them) who are not interested in joining terrorist groups. So, your reasoning is faulty and deceptive.

All your statistical indicators come from Western sources. They are intrinsically biased because they are based on Western values and ways of understand human life. In short, ethnocentrism in its purest form.

All these inaccurate and useless statistical indicators are made as justifications in order to maintain a large and ineffective bureaucracy.

You prefer inaccurate statistics, disconnected from the reality of most Islamic countries. I prefer common life, everyday life, common people.

I have lived in several Islamic countries and I can assure you that all the horrible things you are talking about do not exist in everyday life (the real life). It is your paranoia based on Western propaganda: dishonest journalists, biased ‘international' organizations, tabloids and mass media.

So much for your idea that Islamic countries have living standards on par with west or that they have religious freedom.

What living standards? Are Western living standards the universal pattern? Are the Western concepts of living standards the only ones which can exist?

Sorry, but all your useless statistical indicators are irrelevant and culturally biased. They say nothing real.

In conclusion, an example of ignorance, narrow-minded ethnocentrism, lack of self-criticism, intellectual misery and intellectual laziness. You have to do a lot of homework.

Regarding your obsession with the LGBTIQ issue, I admit that many countries, not just Islamic ones, should improve their tolerance. But it is an oversized problem fed by a weird social agenda.

It is just a social problem amongst many others, and it is not the most important. Western countries have to resolve other problems too, more important problems which affect whole countries and continents, not just a problem which affects solely a minority.

By the way, many Western people do not agree with many LGBTIQ demands and procedures, but usually they do not openly express their opinions due to the new social dogma. Even many people exhibit a fake tolerance while hide a complete disagreement. It is a fact within most Western countries.

People who express freely their disagreement about some LGBTIQ demands are mercilessly and publicly attacked by mass media, journalists, social organizations and politicians. Even they are attacked by other people in the everyday social sphere.

I repeat again: Western countries should clean their own rubbish before pointing out other countries' ones. Western countries should recognize their own sins (and resolve them) before accusing other cultures and civilizations.

All I am seeing is "west is bad, west lies."

As for western living standards, access to water, health, sewerage, basic freedoms etc is not " neurotic consumerism and schizophrenic materialism."

‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God'. Matthew 4:4

Yet still millions of Muslims are coming to the west to partake in its " neurotic consumerism and schizophrenic materialism.

Do you really think that, in countries such as Morocco or Malaysia, atheists and apostates are routinely murdered during everyday life? Are you aware of your absurdity?

Of course not. Like any good repressive system it literally makes people hide their beliefs.

The bisexual metal loving woman I knew in Morocco had to hide every facet of her personality when in Morocco. Because a woman who wears pants, doesn't cover her hair, is attracted to other women and listen to "Satanic" music faces social ostracization or even gaol time in Morocco.

exhibit a fake tolerance while hide a complete disagreement.

Still better than being thrown into gaol eh?

True Muslims understand Islam very well. Taliban, AQ, ISIS and Salafism/Wahhabism have distorted and polluted many Islamic doctrines. They do not understand the essence of Islam.

On one hand you talk about diversity of thought in Islam and then you talk about how some large minority (maybe majority) of Muslims including Muslim intellectuals are "polluted and distorted."

I have lived in several Islamic countries and I can assure you that all the horrible things you are talking about do not exist in everyday life (the real life).

How many homosexuals or atheists or religious minorities did you know there? What gender were the bulk of service people you encountered? Would you say women had same rights as men to do whatever the hell they wanted to?

You could walk through Moscow or Berlin in 1936 and not see Jews or other people being arrested/murdered/sent to camps. You could live there and not notice the tyranny.

I lived in Yugoslavia – I never saw anyone arrested for anything. Yet it happened – we all knew about Goli Otok (the "Naked Isle")(where they kept political prisoners.

People talked politics at home but you didn't dare go outside and sledge the Communist party.

And then there's social mores and values you don't notice. Eg female rights.

It's true the government enshrined female rights and Yugoslav women went to university.

Then the social values that were unwritten yet still part of the social fabric:

- We knew of Australian Croats who went back to Yugoslavia to effectively "buy" a wife – literally they'd go back to their villages, hand a dowry and come back with a bride.

- Many educated Yugoslav women left work permanently once they had children despite access to child care. This was expected behaviour. It happened to two of my aunties. A third stayed in work but she never had children.

The same applies in Islamic societies but only much worse in many of them be they Iran or KSA or Egypt or Pakistan or whatever.

And I'm gonna throw research at you even though you regard western "science" as flawed and lies.

Pew surveyed more than 38,000 muslims across 80 different countries.

link

It turns out that most Muslims want sharia law to be implemented:

By country

‌

Large numbers of Muslims support execution of apostates and severe Islamic style punishment:

Most Muslims believe a wife should obey her husband:

However at the same time they support divorce which shows how complicated these things are:

Most think homosexuality or even drinking alcohol is bad :

<img>https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2013/04/gsi2-overview-9.png</img>

Another interesting "conflict" of opinion is that most Muslims surveyed believe in democracy and believe in freedom of religion (no question asked about atheism) but also think religious leaders need to be involved in politics.

Interestingly the Iranian approach then seems correct under above data – a nominal democracy guided by religious leaders.

However it's clear that Muslims have very different views to westerners whose general society believes firmly in women's rights (certainly no obedience to husband), gay rights and separation of church and state.

It is here the conflict between Islam and the west exists. Under western concepts secular law applies to all yet Muslims prefer to have sharia applied to them especially for family law etc even if the rest of society has secular law. As Islamic minorities grow in west, that means more and more potential people who are exempt from western laws.

No doubt you will discount this as evil western lies.

Sharia law is simply incompatible in Western democracies.

Sharia law is simply incompatible in Western democracies.

Indeed, because it is a an entire system for societal governance that codifies and controls all religious behavior, personal and social behavior, economic norms and political activities.

Good intel ardo …

Sharia law is simply incompatible in Western democracies.

It appears that is a fact … But we will do business most of them anyway. For better or worse …

As identified before it is already coming into west whether we like it or not.

Yet still millions of Muslims are coming to the west to partake in its " neurotic consumerism and schizophrenic materialism.

No, they preserve their faith and traditions. They are leaving their countries due to the poverty imposed by the economic patterns of dependency (Neo-colonialism).

… faces social ostracization or even gaol time in Morocco.

Gaol time for those reasons is not usual in Morocco. In any case, as I have said before, those countries have to implement their own reforms in order to achieve a tolerant social coexistence. And the solution lies in the return to traditional Islam (tolerant and respectful) based on the true Sharia.

It should be noted that traditional Islam (its true characteristics) has nothing to do with fundamentalism. In fact, all fundamentalist ideologies and procedures come from the colonial and post-colonial periods, as a reaction against Western domination.

On one hand you talk about diversity of thought in Islam and then you talk about how some large minority (maybe majority) of Muslims including Muslim intellectuals are "polluted and distorted."

Again, it is obvious that you know nothing about Islamic communities.

There is a wide diversity of thought in Islam, in the good way. It is an enriching diversity. The Taliban, AQ, ISIS and Salafist/Wahhabi are indeed a minority (less than 5% of whole Islamic population). And yes, that little minority (people and intellectuals) has polluted and distorted Sharia and Islam.

How many homosexuals or atheists or religious minorities did you know there?

Many of them. In fact, when I lived in Algeria, two of my close neighbours were a homosexual and a Christian. All the neighbourhood knew that, and they were never disturbed or attacked. It is true that my two neighbours were moderate and discreet. But that was not a problem for them.

You could live there and not notice the tyranny.

You are wrong. Living with common people in humble neighbourhoods is the best proof, the best experience in order to understand and respect other cultures and civilizations. I noticed the tyranny, but I noticed the tyranny exercised by dictators and their power structures, and not for religious reasons but for political and economic ones.

In fact, Islamic spiritual brotherhoods (Sufism tariqas) and other Islamic communities are opponents to dictatorship and they are harshly repressed.

he same applies in Islamic societies

Not exactly. Other civilizations and cultures have different values and ways to understand common life (maternity, family life, feminism, and so on)

If you want to learn about the Islamic feminism and its specific point of view, I recommend the following books:

- Asma Lamrabet and Myriam Francois-Cerrah: Women in the Qur'an: An Emancipatory Reading. (2016)

- Asma Lamrabet and Muneera Salem-Murdock: Women and Men in the Qur'an. (2018)

- Asma Lamrabet: Croyantes et Féministes: Un autre regard sur les religions. (2017).

In French.

… even though you regard western "science" as flawed and lies.

Well, I am a professor. During my career I have noticed the explanatory limitations of statistical indicators and surveys. In fact, they have intrinsic limitations (epistemological ones) and they fail miserably in their attempt to offer deep explanations, understandings and interpretations.

As I have said before, I prefer real life, common life, everyday life. You have to live in those countries, in those societies if you want to obtain a true knowledge about their values and ways of understand human life.

And you have to learn about their culture using their primary and secondary sources, and not a bunch of pamphlets written by ignorant journalists, tabloids and pseudo-academic bureaucracy.

All your indicators, surveys, prejudices and fallacies are the consequence of your ethnocentrism and cultural colonialism.

Muslims prefer to have sharia applied to them especially for family law etc even if the rest of society has secular law.

Muslims prefer whatever they want to prefer. They belong to a different culture and they are within their right to have their specific societies with their own cultural characteristics.

They have other concepts of law, religion, family and so on. They have nothing to do with Western concepts. They will never accept your concepts. It is the consequence of human diversity.

Those populations have to develop their own social and political systems based on their own culture and not on cultural colonialism from other different cultures. Their improvement is in their hands, not in Western ones.

You like a monstruous homogeneity, where everyone has the same values and ways to understand human life, the Western ones of course. That monstrosity is the consequence of colonialism. Nowadays Western people keep on being colonialist in essence.

And again you use a concept of Sharia which does not exist, or it only exists in your imagination, and in the imagination of most Western ignorant people.

Sharia law is simply incompatible in Western democracies.

That is simply an absurdity. It is evident that you have not read my previous posts. Maybe because you are not interested in learning the true meaning of Sharia.

You prefer, like most people here and in most Western countries, fake and distorted concepts made up by ignorant journalists, tabloids and mass media.

Let's go back to school:

- Firstly, Sharia is not a law in a Western meaning. Sharia is a spiritual concept. It is a set of values and principles which a believer should follow in order to reach the true knowledge of God (Haqiqa).

‘Fiqh' is positive law and jurisprudence, and ‘Hudud' is penal code (punishments). So, they are different from Sharia. Sometimes Fiqh and Hudud may develop Sharia in a good way, and sometimes they may distort or contradict Sharia.

Sharia is independent from Fiqh and Hudud. In fact, many Islamic communities (which follow Sharia necessarily, otherwise they are not Islamic) live in countries where Fiqh and Hudud do not exist (Western countries amongst them).

- Secondly, and consequently, People who follow Sharia may live in Western democracies. In fact, there are many Islamic communities in European countries (European converts, not just migrants) and they have no problems with democracy.

Obviously, sometimes there are contradictions between Sharia and some Western laws, and Muslims may suffer an inner conflict. But this kind of conflicts also exists regarding other people who are not Muslim. A Christian or an atheist may disagree with some law or political measure simply because it does not fit with their own moral values.

It should be noted that Western democracy is a historical product which belongs to a specific space and time. It is not a universal pattern. Please, avoid ethnocentrism and cultural colonialism.

As I have said before, other cultures and civilizations should develop their own social and political systems according to their specific cultural characteristics.

because it is a an entire system for societal governance that codifies and controls all religious behavior, personal and social behavior, economic norms and political activities.

That is not accurate. In fact, it is a simplistic definition. You should read my previous post in order to differentiate between Sharia and Fiqh/Hudud.

If some people want to learn the true meaning of Sharia and other Islamic concepts, they should use Islamic sources instead of repeating a bunch of Western distortions, misconceptions and fallacies created by dishonest writers and journalists, tabloids and mass media.

If some people want to learn the fundaments of Quantum Physics, they learn them from scientific sources, not from tabloids.

I do not understand why people here do not learn from accurate Islamic sources. It is incredible, it is Kafkaesque.

The reasons for that phenomenon are: ignorance, prejudices, ethnocentrism, cultural colonialism, intellectual misery, intellectual laziness, and, obviously, irrational Islamophobia.

I have nothing more to say and nothing more to add.

I do not want to repeat my comments and reasonings. If you want to learn accurate concepts from Islamic sources in order to obtain true knowledge about Islam, I recommend the following book. It is the best antidote against all the absurdities, stupidities and fallacies you have mentioned on this board.

Khaled Abou El Fadl. Reasoning with God: Reclaiming Shari'ah in the Modern Age.

It is a masterwork. It is especially recommended for Western readers who do not have access to primary sources. You can understand what Sharia is. It has nothing to do with your invented fallacies.

I do not think you will ever read that book, or other similar ones. You prefer to remain in your ‘comfort zone', surrounded by prejudices and fallacies. It is your choice. But perhaps it will be useful for people with a desire to learn real knowledge from accurate and reliable sources.

Good luck.

Banging on about neo-colonialism, cultural colonialism, disregarding scientific methods, and criticising all of western values really undermines everything you say.

You have an agenda to push.

And your definition of sharia seems unique to you. The 38,000+ Muslims interviewed by Pew for example seem to think it's a set of laws. Many Muslim states refer to sharia for their laws.

And in the west you get organisations such as Islamic Sharia Council which provides rulings to British muslims that are based on sharia law.

Obviously, sometimes there are contradictions between Sharia and some Western laws, and Muslims may suffer an inner conflict.

Islamic community leaders are pushing for sharia law to be implemented in the west to cover things such as family laws, divorce, inheritance etc. In Britain they already have the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal and the Islamic Sharia Council.

That's not an inner conflict, that's actively pursuing a process of Islamification.

Indeed from the Australian Institute of Family Matters (emphasis is mine):

link

Increasingly, Muslims have been making their homes in secular countries in the West. Their religion, Islam, which means submission to God, lays down a comprehensive code for life known as the Sharia, which has laws governing most aspects of a Muslim's daily life, including detailed laws on family and relationships. Muslims in secular nations still try to live by these laws but at times encounter difficulties when Islamic law is not readily reconciled with state law. Hence, there have been recurring requests, including in Australia, for formal state recognition to be given to Islamic law, especially for family law matters involving Muslims. Just as Canada, Britain and the nations of Europe grapple with this issue, so too is Australia. Muslims and non-Muslims divide on the issue. This article assesses the premise for Australia's "one law for all" approach and canvasses the case for and against official legal recognition being given to aspects of Islamic law as the applicable law for Muslims in family law matters. It concludes that, on balance, the status quo should prevail.

AND MORE CRITICALLY:

While Sharia law is the dominant normative force in the lives of many Australian Muslims, its operation and regulation is essentially "underground.

Well, I am a professor. During my career I have noticed the explanatory limitations of statistical indicators and surveys. In fact, they have intrinsic limitations (epistemological ones) and they fail miserably in their attempt to offer deep explanations, understandings and interpretations.

You claim you are a professor yet you deny the validity of observable data collected via scientific methods aka statistics?!? I am literally gobsmacked but then anyone can claim anything on the internet.

Having spent a few years at university myself, I have never encountered an academic who discounted scientific research.

Yes, interviews are flawed but there are no other reliable ways to collect information on people's opinions (unless it's observable phenomena such as buying or voting patterns but these don't actively ask many of the questions in the Pew Research!

My own personal take is that you and your favourite authors want to redefine Islam to meet some sort of more modern interpretation because the 1300 year version just doesn't fit any kind of standard in the 21st century.