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"Frederick's Battles?" Topic


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cabin4clw10 Aug 2021 11:23 a.m. PST

I had a copy of these rules but can't find them. Can anyone help me find them?
Joe

IronDuke596 Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2021 12:21 p.m. PST

They might be stored with your 7YW troops.😊

cabin4clw10 Aug 2021 12:25 p.m. PST

Man, did that turn out wrong!! My drugs, legal, are really working well.😉
Where on the internet could I find these?

Joe

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Aug 2021 1:31 p.m. PST

Never heard of them. When were they published?

Stosstruppen10 Aug 2021 3:54 p.m. PST

They were never published as far as the term implies. They were printed and distributed, and emailed at one point. I don't remember if it was Coggins and Taylor that did them or just Craig. They are a spinoff of Napoleon's Battles

cabin4clw10 Aug 2021 4:51 p.m. PST

They were really nice. I sold my 15mm syw and kept the rules. I am interested in getting back into syw but with 6mm figures which is why I am looking for the rules again.

Stosstruppen10 Aug 2021 6:30 p.m. PST

I'll see if I can scrounge mine up this weekend.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2021 6:59 p.m. PST

In line with what Stosstruppen says I recall those
as _Battles of Frederick the Great_ written basically
by Craig Taylor and then (in collaboration) slightly
expanded and informally 'published' by Craig and
Bob Coggins.

The copy I had was printed on fanfold paper from
a PC text file.

I am unsure of the date but mid-1980's comes to mind.

These rules preceded the Taylor/Coggins product
_Napoleon's Battles_ which IIRC was published in 1989.

Personal logo Cardinal Ximenez Supporting Member of TMP11 Aug 2021 3:13 a.m. PST

I think I have a copy somewhere if you don't find yours Stoss.

Dennis11 Aug 2021 10:17 a.m. PST

There may be more than one set of rules using the same (approximate) title of "Frederick's Battles." This would not be surprising as titles aren't copyrightable-in the US anyway-and so as a consequence there are books, movies, songs and wargames rules with more than one having exactly the same title and more with similar titles. Because of this it may not be clear exactly which "Frederick's Battles" wargames rules you are looking for…

The rules with that title that I know of and have in my collection and have used is a set I downloaded and printed off a Yahoo Group on the internet IIRC, but that was roughly 20 years ago. Those rules have a title page that reads:


"A Guide to Wargaming
"Frederick's Battles
"The Age of Frederick the Great 1740 to 1763
"An unofficial module for use with the Avalon Hill game system NAPOLEONS BATTLES
"This is not a complete game. The Napoleons Battles miniatures game by Avalon Hill is required for the use of the material contained in this module.

"Napoleons Battles is Avalon Hill's trademark for its game of Grand Tactical miniature wargaming. This module is not an Avalon Hill product.
"Copyright Greg Savvinos, Tony Mathers & Michael Bornstein
"December 1996"

This 51-page module is only a collection of charts and scenarios with a very short list of specific rule modifications to Napoleons Battles-almost all of the differences between this "Frederick's Battles" and "Napoleons Battles" is found in the new charts. Our club played it for a while years back; IIRC it was very much Napoleons Battles with slower movement and less flexible maneuvering built into the charts. I only mention the names of the listed authors as sort of an identifier because of the apparent similarity of the names of the apparently different rules.

It doesn't sound like what I have is the same as what Ed Mohrmann or Stosstruppen referred to based on the names of the authors they referenced, so I'm simply suggesting that what you are looking for might or might not be the rules mentioned by them or by me.

cabin4clw11 Aug 2021 10:59 a.m. PST

Dennis,
That is the rules set that I am talking about. I never realized that there was another set of rules with the same name.
Joe

Dennis11 Aug 2021 11:44 a.m. PST

Joe,

Yep, it's more common with books, movies and sometimes songs, but different wargames rules with the same titles surface now and again-IIRC there was a bit of a kerfuffle recently about the use of the title "Post Captain" between two different rules publishers The wargames hobby itself is such a niche market with even smaller areas of interest, and many self-published and small publisher products that it's inevitable that rules' authors are sometimes unaware of and so use a title previously used by someone else.

BTW, here's a discussion on TMP of the rules I mentioned:

link

As I mentioned, I think I downloaded my set of the rules from a Yahoo Group about 20 years ago. When Yahoo went away I saved a bunch of files from some of the groups I belonged to and had hoped that Frederick's Battles was one of those groups so I would have a pdf copy. After checking my saved files I find that, unfortunately, I do not have files for that Yahoo Group anymore-if I ever did.

Anyway, if you can get me an address I'll see if I can get a set to send you.

Dennis

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP11 Aug 2021 1:21 p.m. PST

This is really intriguing.

I played in a Battles of Frederick the Great game
at a gaming con in NJ in about 1981. The game was
run by Craig Taylor. Among the other players were
Wally Simon and Larry Brom.

Craig offered, post-game, to send to anyone who wanted one
a copy of the rules. Mine was, as I said, a fanfold paper
copy of a PC text file.

In discussion of that set of rules with Bob Coggins in
about 1983, he alluded to the 'in development' process
of a similar system for Napoleonic miniatures.

Napoleon's Battles (Taylor and Coggins) was published in
1989. The publisher is listed as Avalon Hill but also
(later) as Capitan Games (now defunct).

If you go to TMP's rules directory you can see an image
of a NB cover with the AH logo clearly displayed.

But yet AH published another version or is the 1996
Savvinos et al effort just Frederick the Great ?

Dennis11 Aug 2021 6:48 p.m. PST

Ed, I think most or all of your questions are answered by my post above.

The Savvinos, Mathers & Bornstein wargames rules "A Guide to Wargaming
"Frederick's Battles The Age of Frederick the Great 1740 to 1763" were written specifically for the referenced period, although several of the historical scenarios don't have Fredrick the Great as a commander. So, the period is just that of Frederick the Great-it could probably be adapted a bit for battles outside the listed period but that would require adapting the relevant army charts for movement, movement modifications, combat modifications and the like and also rating commanders.

It was not published by Avalon Hill and was not a complete set of stand-alone rules, but was an unofficial module and used Avalon Hill's "Napoleons Battles" for many of its underlying rules thereby requiring a copy of "Napoleons Battles" to understand and play it.

Other than not being published by Avalon Hill ("This module is not an Avalon Hill product.") I'm not sure how or by whom it was published, or even if a hard copy was ever printed and sold. I believe I downloaded my copy from the Yahoo Groups "Frederick's Battles" group files (but I'm not 100% sure of that as it was about 20 years ago).

"Frederick's Battles" was generally available in the late 1990s or early 2000s as most of our local club members with an interest in the SYW had a copy (and I'm reasonably certain that I wasn't the source of our club's interest in the rules as I've never been a fan of "Napoleons Battles"). I also believe they were used at least a few times at the Seven Years War Convention in South Bend at about that time-I think I played in a few games at the Con back then.

Finally, as the link in my second comment above suggests, the rules were somewhat known in the TMP community in 2007, and one of the authors, Greg Savvinos, was later a major contributor to Sam Mustafa's "Might and Reason."

von Schwartz ver 212 Aug 2021 5:27 a.m. PST

Used to be a rules set simply called "Frederick the Great" are those the ones you are referring too

Custine21 Aug 2021 6:39 p.m. PST

As it happens I am Greg Savvinos, and I would be happy to send the module to anyone who needs it, just cant figure out a way to do it here.

WKeyser10 Dec 2021 3:24 a.m. PST

I remember talking to Bob Cogins at one of the Historicons and the story I recall is that He and Craig pitched the SYW rules to Avalon Hill and the publisher told them that SYW rules would not sell that they should re do them as Napoleonic so viola Napoleons Battles!

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