"Prussian Dragoon Flagstaffs 1870" Topic

I am hoping the hive mind (or Markus Stein!). may be able to help with this question. I know that the Osprey lists these as white, but other sources indicate that same were natural wood, and others black or blue. Does anyone know of a definitive answer? My German is OK ish, but I couldn't find such an answer in either Fiebig (which has some details but not all) or in the "Geschichte der Koniglich Preussischen Fahnen und Standarten seit dem Jahre 1807". This latter is where I would expect to find it, but it is a large book, and perhaps my German is not as good as I thought it was! All help gratefully received.

The second painting from the top on this page: link shows the standard of the 57th Westphalian being used to rally the troops. Unfortunately you can't blow it up much bigger. It doesn't look white – either black or dark blue. I haven't been able to find anything else.

Dave Gamer, thanks for looking, it is kind of you. The 57th are a line infantry regiment, and the norm was for their flag staffs to be black. White was reserved for Grenadiers in the infantry, and yellow for the Guards. The Four Guard Grenadier Regiments had white staffs. Unfortunately the cavalry is not this straightforward, and they seem to have had different coloured staffs depending on when they were raised. I was hoping someone could put this into some sort of order for me, but no luck so far!

Ah – sorry, didn't catch in the title that you wanted Dragoons. For dragoons I got nuthin'..

I did find on this very site that the Perry's started doing 1870 and 'Rafa' painted up some Prussian dragoons – looks like he went with a black staff on the standard bearer…

TMP link

..and from the Perry site:
link

Thanks Dave, I agree that black is an option. As far as I can see the first four Dragoon Regiments had staffs which reflected their pre Napoleonic origins. Regiments 5-8 were all formed in 1861, and probably had a common colour. Regiments 9-17 were formed in 1867, and likewise probably had a common staff colour..

AFAIK, they are ot allowed to carry their flags in battle.

Actually Jc, the Prussian cavalry did carry their standards in both the Austrian-Prussian and Franco-Prussian Wars.

Really? I thought was an order before 1813.

Fiebig's Unsterbliche Treue follows the history of The flags and standards of the various German states from the early 18thcentury up to WW1. It describes many incidents involving the standards of Kurassier, Dragoon, Uhlan and Hussar regiments, in both the Wars of 1866 and 1870-71. It also records that in the FPW some 200 flags and standards were damaged by enemy fire.

Gottverdamt! I HAVE to redo my cavalry commands? Aie.

Hi,

unfortunately I'm a lot abroad for job reasons and still do not find the time to publish some new articles on my Nap Online and FPW sites … but hopefully I'll finish this year a small additional companion to our FPW uniform book with colorized photos of German soldiers together with anecdotes regarding the uniforms and equipment.

But let's return to the question of dragoon flags and the color of their flagpoles. Generally spoken the AKO of 20th December 1828 was still valid in 1870/71, and it prescribes the color of the flagpoles as:

- yellow for the infantry of the Guard
- white for the cavalry of the Guard
- black for all other (mostly line) units

In 1867 the line grenadier regiments also got white flagpoles. The flags were attached by nails which were in the color of the flag sleeve (white nails for white cloth, yellow nails for black cloth) but in 1860 it was prescribed that the nails should be in the color of the uniform buttons.

These are the general information … I'll add a post with the regimental specification (including the length of the flag poles).

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

… and here are some information for each dragoon regiment:

1st Guard Dragoons => flag M 1798 of the former Garde du Corps, flagpole 3,20 m length

2nd Guard Dragoons => guard flag M 1860, flagpole 3,23 m length

1st Dragoons => flag M 1740 or M 1741, flagpole 3,13 m length

2nd Dragoons => flag M 1725 or M 1727, flagpole 3,14 m length; on the flag sleeve a memorial silver medal for Königgrätz (6 cm broad)

3rd Dragoons => flag M 1722 or M 1725, flagpole 2,78 m length showing mostly the original wooden color

4th Dragoons => flag M 1737, flagpole 2,77 m length, formerly in blue with gilded nails, later colored in black; 46 cm below the tip a silver memorial ring for Nachod (16 cm broad)

5th Dragoons => flag M 1860, flagpole 3,12 m length

6th Dragoons => flag M 1860, flagpole 3,0 m length

7th Dragoons => flag M 1860, flagpole 3,09 m length; 175,5 cm below the tip a memorial silver ring for Königgrätz (4 cm broad); 65 cm above the "flag shoe" two iron splints fixing a breakage of 1870 (no information where)

8th Dragoons => flag M 1860, flagpole 3,192 m length, got a breakage during the FPW (no information at which point of the pole)

9th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,20 m length

10th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,20 m length

11th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,0 m length

12th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,20 m length

13th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,27 m length

14th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,20 m length

15th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,20 m length

16th Dragoons => flag M 1867, flagpole 3,16 m length; the pole was broken 25cm above the "shoe of the flag" in October 1870 near Metz, so three iron splints with a length of 25 cm each

These informations I got from the standard work for Prussian flags and standards: "Geschichte der Königlich Preußischen Fahnen und Standarten seit dem Jahre 1807", 2 Volumen, Berlin 1889.

Greetings
Markus Stein

Markus, many thanks for taking the trouble to answer my question so comprehensively!