"The Anti-War Dilemma" Topic

…Sevareid and his fellow students were ashamed that their fathers and uncles had accepted the official propaganda during World War I. Many took the Oxford oath; still others agitated to end compulsory military drill at the university. Sevareid recalled a campus meeting at which the antiwar oath was debated wildly by two or three hundred students. A vote of those assembled indicated nearly unanimous approval. In 1934, after a week of antiwar agitation at Carleton College, four hundred students voted neither to fight in nor to support any aggressive war…

From Minnesota History Magazine: PDF link

This paints no miniatures.

I don't know, Robert. It's always interesting to read about Ivory Tower idealists' policies while their heads are stuck firmly in the sand.

Plenty of people thought that 'the war to end all wars' was only worth fighting if it did so. In what way did that make them Ivory Tower Idealists ? Particularly in a country that wasn't over keen on joining in wars themselves.

You can't wargame an "anti-war" …🤔

The idealism, ignorance, arrogance, naivete and gullibility of youth. I remember it well.

B

This paints no miniatures.

Without history, there would be no historical minis.

As a UK student in the early 80s, I used to get rather annoyed with the CND at all costs, lot.
War is Bad. NUCLEAR War is REALLY Bad. War without available Nukes to prevent it happening in the first place… they just did not seem to care… just against THEIR Creed.

You can't wargame an "anti-war"

But you can wargame anti-war protesters and riot control. I was trained for riot control for the riots in DC in 1972 but we never got called in.

I've noticed a theme since 1917 that there always seems to be some type of foreign fluence from Marxists, Socialists and Communists always against the wars. Although when the US declared war against Germany the Socialists changed their attitude and supported the war.

Wolfhag

I believe the socialist change of heart about the war came somewhat earlier. When hitler invaded the Soviet Union, they received new orders from the front office.

Although when the US declared war against Germany the Socialists changed their attitude and supported the war.

Which Socialists were these then?

But you can wargame anti-war protesters and riot control.

IIRC back in the '70s, SPI did a game about the '68 Dem Convention in Chicago.

In the 101 we trained for riot control. Even at specific designated locations in the USA. E.g. Weapons manufacturers, Nuc sites, etc. We even got issued, IIRC Remington 870 Riot Shotguns with bayonet lug. But our new bayonets did fit !

But we all did enjoy firing them on the range!

IIRC back in the '70s, SPI did a game about the '68 Dem Convention in Chicago.

With the easy to remember name "Chicago, Chicago!".
link

And of course a number of similar, though not exactly the same as anti-war protests, like Minuteman: The Second American Revolution"
link

IIRC, they had no plans on giving us ammo which would be a good call.

Wolfhag

Thanks Marc ! I remember now !

Wolf :

they had no plans on giving us ammo which would be a good call.

I'm not sure what the ammo plan was? But after Kent State. Everybody had to think twice.

If one guys shoots … everybody shoots. By the time the leadership gets things back under control … it may be too late …

I wonder if this is where John Wayne's son character came from in "In Harm's Way"?
(BTW, first thing I did after reading through the article was look for links between the farmer and labor party and communism.)

Legion 4:

In the 82nd we did NOT!

When I left active duty and went into the Guard, there was at one point some discussion about ensuring our battalion was trained in riot control. Our colonel asked me if I had ever had riot training, so that I could serve as a trainer, and I said, "Sir, all I know about riot control is which side the belt goes in, and which side the spent shell casings come out."

They found someone else to train on riot control.

😲

But at least you got out of being the OIC for Riot Control training ! 👍👍

When I was in the USAR in '91 as the S2 of a QM Grp. They always had me instruct, run ranges, etc. I didn't have to study up on anything usually ! After being on Active Duty with 4 Inf Bns, etc.,'79-'90 … They got their moneys' worth from me that year … 😎

Yep. Worst was a 155mm direct fire range with the old M109A3 155SP guns. Someone put a round down range without swabbing out the breech, (enormous blast of fire out of the muzzle brake and the long shot were dead giveaways) and I let the section chief know about it. I walked away, and gave them clearance to resume firing when they reported ready, and the next round went HALF as far as the previous one- I heard the shrapnel rattle against the front of the vehicle.

I found when I arrived at the gun that the crew had taken the water bucket, thrown it into the breech to cool it, and reloaded. They were under armor; I wasn't. It wasn't a young section chief, either.

Valuable lesson about what you can and can't assume about basic common sense.

War is a natural state of human affairs. We are animals after all and are driven by survival instincts which means accumulation of resources necessary to survive (land, natural resources etc).

Good intel Nine pound round … That is one reason a "good" Officer/leadership is critical. You may have even wrote that gun's leadership/crew up for poor procedures, etc.

arealdeadone – Yes, some still don't get that … the human does have survival instincts, etc., like any other animal. And as it is so often said, "Survival of the fittest" is still a factor.

"You can't wargame an "anti-war" ".

Of course you can, as mentioned above, it is called riot control, and those "anti-war" engagements CAN be surprisingly violent, mostly from the side of the protesters.

I was on the Washington Mall back in the early 1970s, celebrating the 4th of July as a youngster, watching the fireworks, when we got gassed by riot control personnel in response to the anti-war protesters there.

Luckily, I and my family are alive today, since my dad stood over and protected us from being trampled to death, as we hunkered down on the ground, while the crowds fled from the gas and the riot police firing it.

I don't blame the riot police for that, but I do hold the rioters in extreme contempt for their actions, causing this to occur.

I suspect some people died, and many were injured during the stampede(s) caused by their actions.

I well remember going to Harvard Square (Cambridge MA) one really nice and sunny summer Saturday in the early 70's. There was not a soul to be seen anywhere. Anyone who knows Harvard Square understands how utterly absurd that sounds. I was standing bewildered in the middle of the square, when a Cambridge cop wearing a gas mask emerged from the old news kiosk sitting over the entrance to the Harvard MBTA subway station and told me to get the hell out ….. which I immediately did.

It turns out that the Weather Men had staged a "anti-war protest march", trashing every business, large or small, on Massachusetts Avenue from MIT to Harvard Square.

Don't assume that Antifa is any sort of "new" phenomenon.

B

I have to laugh when people say they are Anti-Fascists … yes, we all are, save for a few. But these Antifa thugs are trained anarchists, rioters, anti-police, anti-military, anti-Capitalist, anti-democracy, anti-Gov't. And the list goes on.

They should be labeled domestic terrorists and locked up in sunny Gitmo. After a fair trial of course …