"Coup de mitraille vs biscayen" Topic

Hello everyone,

Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between these two words? Mitraille translates to grapeshot, but I can not figure out if Biscayen means the same thing or some other type of artillery round.

Boulet= cannonball
Balle= Bullet
Mitraille= grapeshot
Biscayen?

Thanks for the help in advance,
Michael

mitraille is canister, small balls, the French used iron ones, they did not use grapeshot, but could also describe musket firing – so a musket ball (of lead) also.

In what context did you see biscayen used?

Von W,

Thanks for the correction! I will make the changes to my documents. Would it be more appropriate to say wounded by a canister round to the left hip or wounded by a canister ball to the left hip? I am guessing since the Verdier division attacked a well-entrenched position with cannons, the wounds would come from Russian artillery.

Brechtel198,
I am looking at Colonel Jean-Baptiste Jeanin and Colonel Laurent Schobert, who were both wounded at the Battle of Heilsberg. One says blesse d'un coup de mitraille and the other says blesse d'un coup de biscayen. Both attacked a Russian during the late hours of the battle.

Snippet from Colonel Jeanin's service record. Both words are used.

it is a strong caliber for muskets extended also in a naval context like here coming from a gunboat

BISCAYEN was first used as an adjective; to express the idea of a strong caliber, we said: a Biscayan musket; since then the projectile has been called Biscayan
of this weapon, and finally its name is generally applied to all the (boulets) small cannonballs. The Biscayans are thrown in clusters, that is to say in packs whose total weight is equivalent to that of a ball of the caliber of the coin which receives them. The weight of Biscayans is usually a pound (une livre) and below.

[automatic translation from original below]

BISCAYEN. s. m. Biscaïen fut d'abord employé comme adjectif; pour exprimer l'idée d'un fort calibre, on disait : un mousquet biscaïen; depuis on a appelé biscaïen ou biscayen le projectile de cette arme, et enfin son nom s'est appliqué généralement à tous les petits boulets. Les biscayens se lancent par grappes, c'est-à-dire en paquets dont le poids total équivaut à celui d'un boulet du calibre de la pièce qui les reçoit. Le poids des biscayens est ordinairement d'une livre et au-dessous.
Dictionnaire pittoresque de la marine 1835

Biscayen (FR) = Biscayan (EN) = Of Biscay/Bilbao

Irregular-shaped projectile? Like miquelet shot?

Lilian 4 the win:

Pertaining to Biscay, one of the three Basque provinces of Spain, or to its people:

- A native or an inhabitant of Biscay.

- Milit.: A long and heavy musket, usually carried on a permanent pivot, for use on fortifications or the like.

- A heavy bullet, usually of the size of an egg; one of the separate balls of grape- or case-shot.

Wordnik – Biscayan

A 'Mitrailleuse' of course being their famous 19thC. 'machine gun', the Mitrailleuse de Reffye of a later period, analogous with the Gatling.
d

- -
link

biscayen perhaps also the fragment of an exploding grenade?

Here what Gassendi says in 1809:

Biscayen. An old designation fo a small iron ball.

link

Mitraille. Incorrect expression for designating a cartridge with balls for a cannon. One should uses this word only if the canister contains only pieces of iron.

link

I am not sure what he means with pieces (morceaux). Nails and the like ?

In 1798, the Dictionnaire de l'Académie française defined:

Mitraille. […] also all kind of old nails and old iron, with which sometimes a cannon is loaded.

link

I assume "biscayen" refers to a single iron ball used in a canister round, whereas in land warfare "mitraille" refered – incorrectly, according to Gassendi and the Dictionnaire – to the whole canister round.

Thank you everyone for the help and explanations.

Below is a portrait of Colonel Jean-Baptiste Jeanin (Jeannin or Janin) which displays a scar on the lower half of his left jaw from his wound at the Siege of Acre from biscayen to the left maxilla region. The portrait was done by Jacques-Louis David sometime after 1808, as Jeanin was married to one of his daughters and I believe later was divorced.

@OliverSchmidt
'morceaux' = effectively 'pieces of scrap metal' Imagine the cartoon blunderbus from Bugs Bunnny days

@MarbotsChasseurs
In time, mitraille came to signify any cloud of hostile metal emerging down range, in the same way that 'grapeshot' was used in English to signify any submunition fired from an artillery piece, whether it was what was more correctly referred to as 'case shot' on land, or le véritable 'grapeshot,' which seems to have been more generally reserved for naval gunnery.

(In the same way that today, in common usage, shrapnel is used to signify any type of shell fragment being dispersed with hostile intent, whereas 'Shrapnel shell' or 'Spherical Caseshot' was formerly a specific round, designed by the eponymous Major Shrapnel, which delivered a similar sub-munition as standard)

In every context where I have come across the term, 'biscayen' has signified what in colloquial English would have been described as 'a grapeshot' or similar- technical accuracy notwithstanding.

e.g "Lord Uxbridge was struck by a grapeshot on the right knee which shattered the joint all to pieces."
(Wildman, Uxbridge's ADC, writing the day after the battle (19th June, 1815)

"I found on inspection that a grape shot had struck him on the right knee close to the lower edge of the patella.."
Deputy Inspector John Robert Hume. Wellington's surgeon. (Writing 19th June, 1815)

Alternative, later, descriptions of the same event refer to 'a ball' or 'a shot,' which might be seen as ambiguous.

As I understand it, during the Napoleonic period, 'canister' is not found in contemporary English usage. James' 'A New and Enlarged Military Dictionary' (1802) contains no mention, while his 'Universal Military Dictionary' of 1816 only has this one reference:
"Tin Case Shot is formed by putting a quantity of small iron shot into a cylindrical tin box called a canister, that just fits the bore of the piece" (p415)= 'canister' in this instance referring to one component of the round.

In the end you perhaps need to consider your audience.

'A (round of)'Grape shot' will communicate adequately the nature of the wounding to a general reader. If you are writing for a more specialised (and -dare I say it- more judgemental) reader, you might choose not to perpetuate the mis-nmomer and use 'round of a case shot' or similar.

However, FWIW, I now wonder whether that particular horse has not left the stable, and begin to think that 'grapeshot'- like 'shrapnel' today- does the job and is perfectly acceptable in general narrative.

Using the term 'grapeshot' for a field artillery anti-personnel round is incorrect. Canister is much more accurate as it was the anti-personnel round of choice for field artillery.

The British used the term 'case shot' for canister.

In both Tousard's American Artillerist's Companion and Williams' translation of DeScheel's artillery treatise the term 'canister' is used quite often and accurately.

Mitraille can denote either grapeshot or canister.

Langrage, or langrel, was a type of artillery ammunition which was 'formed of bolts, nails, and other pieces of iron, tied together.' It was used by the navies but could also be used by any type of artillery, land or sea.

In present artillery usage, the term 'fragmentation' is used instead of the older term 'shrapnel.'

mitraille was used in memoires to describe musketry as well, like in context rain of bullets.
Also when artillery used it – mitraille / canister

Gassendi may have described those words in the academical context only.

>>refered – incorrectly, according to …

Invariably, tradesmen use incorrect terms for portraying an event, that an engineer would not countenance.
That is human nature-- and we should accept what is used, not moralise over its inate accuracy or otherwias.

Shot, plastered or smothered in iron, scrap or pure lead, you are wounded and thats that.
cheers (retreats to hedgerows…)
d

fwiw

BISCAIEN "(Biscaians), subs. masc. (F; G, 2, Si. Word first used as an adjective, and which is found in the words MUSQUET BISCAIEN, or Biscaïe, that is to say MUSQUET with strong CALIBER, or kind of RIFLE OF REMPART. has, by abbreviation, named Biscaien the BULLET of these FIREARMS. This PROJECTILE, whose range is four hundred to six hundred meters, has become the smallest of the CANNONBALLS. MITRAILLE all the Biscaians arranged in layers on a BASE. – Biscaians are made from MITRAILLE BOXES. – The Encyclopedia of People of the World has them
treaty.

---
BISCAIEN» (biscaïens), subs. masc. (F;G, 2, Si. Mot d'abord employé comme adjectif,et qui se retrouve dans les mots MOUSQUET BISCAIEN , ou Biscaïe, c'est-à-dire MOUSQUET à fort CALIBRE , ou espèce de FUSIL DE REMPART. On a, par abréviation, nommé Biscaien la BALLE de ces ARMES A FEU. Ce PROJECTILE, dont la portée est de quatre cents à six cents mètres, est devenu le plus petit des BOULETS DE CANON. — Dans le siècle dernier, on nommait GRAPPES DE MITRAILLE l'ensemble des Biscaïens rangés par couches sur un CULOT. — On compose de Biscaïens des BOITES de MITRAILLE. — L'Encyclopédie des Gens du monde en a
traité.

"boite de mitraile" would translate, more or less literally, as 'case shot.'

"Grappes de Mitrailles', confusingly, does not give us the English term 'grapeshot,' since 'grappe' means a 'bunch' or 'cluster'; indicating the individual shot being bound together with wire or cord.

The French for 'grape' is raisin (unless in a bottle) whence cometh grappe de raisin which indeed signifies 'grapeshot,' inspired by the resemblance of the wire-bound 'cluster' to a bunch of grapes, rather than the grape-sized calibre of the shot employed, which tended to be larger (Also known as 'cartouches a raisin')

I have little doubt, though, that in English usage the size of the projectile used in heavier calibre case shot recalling a fat grape must have had something to do with the ubiquity of the term. Although, of course, this was unquestionably incorrect and poor show.

The French artillery had two sizes of canister. One had larger and fewer iron balls than the other.

The French tested canister after the Seven Years War and found that using lead balls didn't work well. Lead having a relatively low melting point caused the canister balls to fuse together when fired, defeating the purpose of the round.

Iron balls were found to be satisfactory and spread out in a cone-shaped pattern after the round ruptured in the gun tube. A good proportion hit the target and it was also found that the iron balls had the ability to ricochet like roundshot.

Thank you, everyone, for the great responses! Although, now I am unsure how to show the difference in a short sentence correctly. Paul Lindsay Dawson mentioned a possible solution that I should write mitraille or biscayen and then use a footnote to describe the difference.

Another one that I commonly see is éclat d'obus, which translates as shrapnel, but I have written it as a shell fragment.

Suggestion:

- Biscayen – large lead shot – rampart-piece/heavy musket.

- Mitraille – small iron shot – canister/case-shot.

Of course you'd only which if you had to dig it out.

The iron shot may be preferable – if lucky enough to go through without killing you – posssibly less tissue to debride versus the passage of a deformed lead shot.

Stoppage,

Great suggestion. I bet you are correct that these men could care less which type of artillery hit them, but that they survived and could still keep fighting.

I am trying to chronicle the wounds of officers and men and would like to provide the most accurate data, which can be frustrating at times due to some loss in translation with certain military terms.

Thank you again,
Michael

I suspect there weren't that many wounds from wall guns, large calibre muskets, etc, in this period, compared to those from artillery fire, particularly in field actions.

Siege of Acre – biscayen – Ottoman wall-gun?
Battle of Heilsberg – mitraille – Russian case-shot

Bonhams – Ottoman miquelet wall gun

Reading the fine print- yes…

according to Goetze, at Austerlitz the 1/4eme de ligne had formed square and was decimated prior to the final Chevalier Garde assault/ charge by four 6 pounders of Russian Garde Artillery, unlimbered at 200 metres from them and unleashed 5 volleys before the second wave cavary squadrons waded in, breaking their last mens resolution to stand.
[Source the Russian offcer in charge of the guns].

Hence the ignoble or undignified rout, right through and past Imperial HQ on the sloping Western side of the ridge.

>>I suspect there weren't that many wounds from wall guns, large calibre muskets,<<

Tell that to Nelson,
regards d

éclat d'obus

I agree, I would use shell fragment as well.

As to biscayen, I would use grape shot (I still wonder how to survive hits by those) at least very heavy injury

mitraille – difficult, in my view could be ball from a canister or musket ball.

One would have to find out if the enemies used canister or only grape shot.

In case what do those reports mention when musket ball wounds are described?

Dave,

One always carries one into battle just in case!

Stoppage, I just translated his wound at the Siege of Acre and it says he was wounded by a biscayen round from an English gunboat. However, how Jeanin would have survived a small cannonball right to the lower maxilla/jaw region without losing that side of his face is unknown to me. Maybe it came at an angle and grazed his face?

von W,

The 12e Legere at Heilsberg attacked an entrenched redoubt held by the Russians. I am guessing they encountered both Russian cannons and Licornes. For a musket wound, it is written as blessé d'un coup de feu a la (insert body part) is the most commonly seen phrase, which translates as wounded by a shot, and then blessé d'un coup de balle, which translates as wounded by a bullet. blessé d'un coup de baïonnette translates to wounded by a bayonet blow, which I usually write as received six bayonet wounds.

Examples of a small portion of officers wounded

Capit of Voltigeurs. Pierre-Joseph du Ruel: Shot in the right leg.
Capit. Simon Bouclet: Shot in the left thigh.
Capit. Joseph Armand: Wounded by a shot that traversed his right shoulder, a shell fragment above the left eye, three bayonet wounds to the head, two bayonet wounds on the left side penetrating the chest, one to the left arm, and two blows from a musket butt to the right leg. Taken prisoner of war on the battlefield.
Capit. Augustin Thibaut: Wounded in the left arm.
Capit. Edme-René-François Cagnat: Wounded by a canister round to the right shoulder.

@SHaT1984

"Tell that to Nelson

Read the small print: "particularly in field actions" (as opposed to sieges-)

Naval action was not part of the discussion and is there any suggestion Nelson was felled by anything other than a musket from the fighting tops of Redoutable?

@ von winterfeld
"if the enemies used canister or only grape shot"
Weren't they essentially same thing in common usage? How would you distinguish between the two terms- in common usage.
It seems to me mitraille pretty much always means caseshot/canister/ 'grapeshot'-

@Marbot
"How Jeanin would have survived a small cannonball right to the lower maxilla/jaw region without losing that side of his face"

If you think of it not so much as a small cannon ball as perhaps an outsize musket ball, maybe that is is easier to envisage. And, yes, a lucky escape with just a graze. Even if it had just been a musket ball his maxilla would have been shattered under different circumstances.

.. "Gribeauval perfected grape shot, and replaced lead bullets with boxes with cast iron bullets called biscaiens" ..
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.. "Gribeauval a perfectionné le tir de la mitraille, et a substitué aux balles en plomb les boites avec des balles en fonte, nommées biscaiens" ..
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(Fonte = Alloy of iron and carbon obtained in blast furnaces)
---

"Set of old irons, nails, fragments of various metals from which the guns were originally loaded (incorporated if necessary into explosive materials) and subsequently used in the manufacture of cartridges for the artillery (once locked in boxes or in bundles in canvas bags).
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Ensemble de vieux fers, clous, fragments de divers métaux dont à l'origine on chargeait les canons (incorporés le cas échéant, à des matériaux explosifs) et employés, par la suite dans la fabrication des cartouches pour l'artillerie (une fois enfermés dans des boîtes ou en paquets dans des sacs de toile).
--

"En 1812, le général comte Grouchy reçoit le commandement d'un des trois corps de cavalerie de la Grande Armée. Il commande le 3e corps de cavalerie lors de la campagne de Russie. Il passe le premier le Dniepr et combat à Krasnoï, à Smolensk et à la Moskowa. C'est à lui que l'on doit le succès de cette dernière bataille, dans laquelle il reçoit un biscaïen dans la poitrine"
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In 1812, General Count Grouchy was given command of one of the three cavalry corps of the Grande Armée. He commands the 3rd Cavalry Corps during the Russian campaign. He was the first to cross the Dnieper and fight in Krasnoy, Smolensk and Moskowa. It is to him that we owe the success of this last battle, in which he receives a biscai in the chest,

so it seems you can survive while receiving a biscaien in the chest ! ; )

best regards

Cdr Luppo,

Thank you for your response. I found some interesting websites/blogs describing the differences in sizes of biscaïen link

link

As well as what it looks like from the time period to have a round to the maxilla region. Colonel Jeanin was truly lucky!
link

biscaïen= large iron bullet
mitraille= canister

Michael

grape shoot, usually a wooden platform with a stick in the middle and around it are placed large iron balls – intended to engage at longer range than canister.

Canister – as container which contained balls of about musket size but could vary as well, seemingly canister with larger balls did exist which again were used for larger distances than those with smaller ones.

The change to iron balls in canister had the effect that they would bounce also like canon balls and that they did not "bake" together as it could happen to lead balls squezed into the canister container.

In case the French – on the receiving end made a clear distinction between grape shot and canister.

As for the Russian artillery – they seemingly used also canister only but in different ball sizes, see the new edition of Zhmodikovs' work about the Russian army in a massive appendix.

@Von W. "the French – on the receiving end made a clear distinction between grape shot and canister."

A confusion arises from the colloquial use in a British context of the term 'grapeshot' to mean any sub-munitions fired in an anti-personnel 'caseshot' round, perhaps with an emphasis on the larger, heavier calibre balls. (As opposed to 'true' grapeshot, which took the form you describe above and tended to be a naval munition).

You make an interesting point about distinctions made when 'on the receiving end.'

Given that, on land at any rate, British artillery did not fire 'true' grapeshot, presumably the French were also making a distinction between lighter and heavier case shot coming at them.

Not being 'au fait' with that many French sources, would it be correct to assume that, in general terms, when French soldiers were on the receiving end of British case shot, any "distinction between grape shot and canister" they made was between biscaiens and mitraille?

I am guessing that we would be unlikely to find a French soldier who described being hit by a hail of grappe à raisin.

By this period, canister was the preferred anti-personnel ammunition as it was a more efficient people-killer than grapeshot.

In short, it wasn't used by field artillery but was still used by the navy.