"Italian flags" Topic

I'm building an Italian infantry brigade c.1809-12.

They will therefore have the new, non-republican style flags.

There seem to be contradictions in sources regarding the number of full flags and eagles.

One says a full flag and eagle for every Bn, another gives no date but says that Bns other than the first had fanions (can find no pix or other references to this however).

What is the truth here? I see a number of possibilities:

1809-12. Eagle and flag for every Bn.

After 1810, the Italians mimic the French, gradually withdrawing eagles and substituting fanions.

1813 onwards (ie after the Russian disaster). Eagle and new 1813 pattern flag for first Bn, fanions and spearhead finials for the rest.

Full flags and eagles for every Bn throughout.

From the Napoleonic Association booklet by James Currie & Geoff Gibbs "The Kingdom of Italy Infantry 1805-14"page 37:

In 1808 eagles were finally presented to the Italiasn infantry. These eagles were Italian made 9in Milan by Francesconi) and were very similar to to the classic Chaudet pattern but with minor differences in the pose of the neck and claws. One standard was given to the senior battalion of each Line Regiment (junior battalions carried their colours on plain pike staffs). There is some doubt as to whther eagles were distributed to Light Infantry regiments. the number of the regiment may have sometimes been displayed on the base of the eagle, which was carried on a plain black staff. the colour was attached to the staff by gilt studs. In fact, the eagle was often carried without the colour and the staff was decorated with a simple red, white and green cravate.

Will post more later (possibly tomorrow) once I have had a chance to look at my Italian books & Rawkins CD.

Now had a chance to access my Rawkins' CD:

FLAGS AND STANDARDS
The Reggimento Fanteria di Linea were officially issued with one eagle flag and four battalion flags, two of which were stood up until 1809 when the regiments achieved full four battalion strength. The Reggimento Leggera and the Reggimento Dalmata were issued with four flags but no eagles and Battaglione D'Istria were issued with a single flag but no eagle. The only other infantry unit to receive a flag was the Reggimento Veterani e Invalidi who were issued with a single flag in 1812. The 1805 pattern infantry flags measured approximately 95cm x 95 cm for all except the Battaglione D'Istria whose flag measured 92cm x 99 cm. Prior to 1813 the flags were embroidered but the 1813 pattern flags were mostly painted on silk. Pikestaffs were 1.7m with a plain brass leaf-shaped finial. The regimental eagles were of the same pattern as issued to the French army and were gilded bronze with the regimental number on the plinth. The flag had a cravat of green, white and red stripes with gold fringes which was tied with a bow at the staff head.

The flag was carried by the 2o Fusiliere Compagnia of each infantry battalion; the 1oBattaglione carried the eagle after 1808. The escort party for the eagle was composed of the Aquile-Alfieri, a captain or lieutenant selected for the honour of carrying the eagle by the regimental commander who, from 1811 was required to
have at least ten years service, and the two Sergente 2o/3o Bandiera Porta; a new rank introduced by Napoleon to the French and Italian line infantry in 1806/1808 following the issue of Imperial Eagles to all infantry régiments. The Sergente 2o/3o Bandiera Porta was a senior grenadier sergeant selected by the regimental colonel and approved by the emperor or viceroy, who was technically part of the regimental staff. He wore the uniform of the grenadier company but held no command position within the regiment. The high rate of fatalities whilst protecting the eagle concerned Napoleon as many of the experienced senior sergeants and sergeant-majors were lost to the regimental command structure during the 1805 campaign whilst defending the regimental colours. The two sergeants were assigned as escorts for the eagle and carried a 7 foot esponton, or poleaxe with a pointed pennon which was red or green and was usually inscribed with the legend NAPOLEON or the regimental designation. The shaft of the esponton was usually painted red or green to match the pennon. The red pennon was carried by the 2e Porte Drapeau who stood to the right of the eagle bearer and the green pennon was carried by the 3e Porte Drapeau who stood to the left. The selected sergeants wore the normal rank insignia for the grenadiers but in addition wore two gold inverted chevrons on the upper sleeves. In 1811 all serving Sergent 2e/3e Porte Drapeaux were promoted to sergent-major. In the field the escort was enlarged by six veteran soldiers from the grenadier or fusilier companies, usually sergeants or corporals. When the eagle was paraded with the regiment for revue the honour guard was composed of the Sergents 2e/3e Porte Drapeaux and the six senior grenadier or fusilier fourriers of the battalion.

FANTERIA DI LINEA There exists some doubt as to whether the line infantry regiments carried flags between the years 1805 to 1808 because of the delays caused by Bonaparte's postponing the sanctioning of issue of the new designs of flags and standards for the Italian Army.

Subsequently the 1805 Pattern flag was probably first issued to the regiments until 1808. The flag followed the French style and had a white central lozenge with dark green upper hoist and lower fly corner cantons and red in the opposite corners. The green used for the flags was of the same notional shade as for many of the Italian uniforms but the red appears to have varied from a scarlet, to a dark wine-red or a light carmine according to different batches of dye used. Surviving fragments have mostly faded to a dirty orange colour although the green has preserved well.

The central lozenge was bordered with a gold laurel edging and the obverse had a central motif of a mid-blue globe with gold ‘sunburst' surround within a laurel and oak-sprig wreath in natural colours. Above and below the globe were sky-blue ribbons with gold inscriptions; the upper bore the motto ‘VALORE E DISCIPLINE' and the lower ribbon the battalion number ‘ … BATTAGLIONE'. The lettering on the globe could be either silver or gold and read ‘NAPOLEONE / IMPERATORE DE FRANCESI / RE D'ITALIA / AL …REGGTO D'INFANTa / DI LINEA'. The reverse of the flag had gold laurel wreaths in all four corners and the central motif was the Italian Royal coat-of-arms in gold with a cape of dark green and ermine.

The Fanteria Leggera carried a pattern of flag of almost identical pattern with the word ‘DI LEGGERA' on the central globe replacing the ‘Di Linea'. The flag of the Battaglione D'Istria was of the same 1805 pattern with the wording on the globe reading ‘‘NAPOLEONE / IMPERATORE DE FRANCESI / RE D'ITALIA / AL BATTAGKIONE REALE / D'ISTRIA'. The upper ribbon, above the globe was sky blue with the motto ‘VALORE E DISCIPLINE' and the lower ribbon the battalion number ‘ … BATTAGLIONE' for the Fanteria Leggera and the Battaglione D'Istria flag had the motto ribbon only. There are no records known to the author of any flag issued to the Reggimento Dalmata before 1813.

In 1811 new flags were designed and authorised for the line regiments however these were again delayed being issued as Bonaparte failed to approve the new patterns submitted by Beauharnais.

The new flags were eventually issued piecemeal, some battalions receiving the flags during 1812 but most not receiving the issue until early 1813 after the 1812 campaign. The new flag pattern is commonly known as the 1813 pattern as this was when the majority were issued. It is unknown is any of the 1811 pattern flags were actually carried during the 1812 campaign in Russia but some were certainly delivered to regimental depots in the autumn of 1812.

The new flags were again of a tricolour lozenge design with the central white field bordered with gold laurels, although some flags may have been painted with the laurel borders in natural colours. The globe was replaced as the central motif on the obverse with a natural coloured laurel and oak-sprig wreath enclosing an inscription in gold and read ‘NAPOLEONE / IMPERATORE DE FRANCESI / RE D'ITALIA / AL …REGGTO D'INFANTa / DI LINEA'; or ‘DI LEGGERA' for the light infantry. Above and below the inscription were sky-blue ribbons; the upper bore the motto ‘VALORE E DISCIPLINE' and the lower ribbon the battalion number ‘ … BATTAGLIONE'. The reverse of the 1813 pattern flag had a central motif of the Italian crowned eagle in gold with a sky-blue ribbon above with the battalion number ‘ … BATTAGLIONE'. The lower ribbon, below the eagle was sky blue with the motto ‘VALORE E DISCIPLINE'.

The flag issued to the Reggimento Dalmata was of the ‘1813 Pattern' butmay actually have been issued in late 1811 although it was only officially presented to the unit in 1813. The obverse was of the same design as the flags for the line infantry with the central inscription reading ‘NAPOLEONE / IMPERATORE DE FRANCESI / RE D'ITALIA / AL REGGIMENTO / DI'INFANTERIA / DALMATA'. Above and below the inscription were skyblue ribbons; the upper bore the motto ‘VALORE E DISCIPLINE' and the lower ribbon the battalion number ‘ … BATTAGLIONE'. The reverse face of the flag had gold wreaths in the corner cantons; the central motif was an Imperial Eagle above a gold representation of the royal circlet crown with a star above and enclosed within a laurel and oak-spring wreath in natural colours.

Rigo Planches:

I dont believe Malvau.
The Guard Roiale received French (Paris) made 1804 style flags and eagles, carried on the Ulm/Austerlitz campaigns. They were not fringed at all. That was solely an Italian affectation

In essence the formed line units of the 'Army of Italy' still carried their old flags at that time.
~d

those are Rigo plates – Malvaux is a seller of original documents, items and collections

@Dave – illustration 6 above is the 1805 flag 9see text below).

From the top of my post with the illustrations – here is the description of the actual flags (Rigo gives his Sources: Archives du Musée de l'Armée – Documentation J. BRU NON GHISI – Del Tricolore italiano) taken from my copies of the Le Plumet Series planches:

1st
A) Avers du drapeau du régiment de Grenadiers à pied de la Garde Royale Modèle 1813
B) Revers du même modèle
C) Avers du Fanion des Carabiniers – Modèle 1813 (Musée de Vienne)
D) Revers du Fanion des Grenadiers à pied – Modèle 1813 (Musée de Vienne

2nd
A) Avers de l'Etendard des Gendarmes d'Elite modèle 1810.
'Collections Raoul et J. Brunon Château de l'Emperi • Salon de Provence!
B) Revers du même modèle.
C) Revers de l'étendard du ter Escadron du Régiment des Gardes d'Honneur modèle 1813. (Collection du Prince Napoléon)
D) Avers du même modèle.
E) Type d'Aigle Italienne {Collection du Prince Napoléon).

3rd
A) Revers de l'étendard du Régiment de Dragons – Reconstitution du modèle 1805-1813.
B) Détail des grandes armoiries brodées figurant sur le revers du modèle 1805 – 1813.
C) Avers de l'étendard du Régiment de Dragons modèle 1813 -1814.
D) Revers du même modèle.

4th

5th

6th (additional source HEKKEL Les Trophées de Notre Dame de Kazan)
A) Avers du drapeau du Bataillon de Grenadiers à pied de la Garde Royale Modèle 1805, (Musée de l'Armée – PARIS)
B) Revers du même modèle
C) Revers du Fanion de Grenadiers à pied de la Garde Royale. Modèle 1812
D) Avers du même modèle
E) Avers du Fanion de Carabiniers de la Garde Royale. Modèle 1812
F) Revers du même modèle

7th

8th

Will see if I can find the other plates to fill the blanks in for the others (or utilise other sources if I cannot track down the text).

8th
A) Avers du drapeau du bataillon de grenadiers du regiment des VELITES DE LA GARDE ROYALE, modele 1813 (Collections Raoul et J. Brunon Chateau de l'Emperi – Salon de Provence).
B) Revers du même modèle.
C) Avers du Fanion des Carabiniers avec sa cravate (1805-1813). Le revers est semblable.
D) Revers du Fanion des Grenadiers (1805-1813). L'avers est semblable sans toutefois les galon jaunede bordure.

Thanks, a Prince indeed! Duly bookmarked.

So for my brigade, eagle and flag for 1st Bn. Spearhead finials and flags for the rest. No French style Bn fanions. Staves black (that was a surprise – I expected more flamboyance, perhaps painted in spirals like the Austrians).

Now, does anyone know of a supplier of 15mm Italian Guard flags? I've got Cotton Jim flags for the Line infantry (and very good they are too).

@thegeneral
Certainly for the earlier flags the poles were flamboyant with spirals of red, white & green.

I have ordered the "missing" Rigo plates (originally owned by Rigo) from Bertrand Malvaux & will post the commentary against the flags as soon as they are received.

What Rigo plates are you missing? I have all the plates from 1 to 255, including the plate texts. I posted the lot on the now-defunct A.C.G site. I can't remember if I had posted them on here but I will post them if anyone's interested?

Thanks Paul,
The Italian flags are all in the D series not the various uniform series.
Ian

I have these in my collection which includes the Italian: I have posted other nations which may be of interest too.

Package has now arrived :-):

Identification text against the various flags as follows:

4th:
A) revers du drapeau du 1er bataillon du regiment d'infanterie Dalmatie – modele 1813
B) Revers du meme drapeau.
C) Avers du drapeau du 2eme bataillon du 1er regiment d'Artillerie a pied – modele 1805. Le revers est sembable a la figure C en ajoutant les franges dorees.

5th:
A) Avers du drapeau du 1er bataillon du 5e regiment d'Infanterie de ligne distribue en 1808. L:e revers est semblable a la Figure C.
B) Avers du drapeau du bataillon des Chasseurs d'Istrie (dimensionms 0.92m x 0.98m)
C) Revers du meme drapeau.

7th:
A) Avers de l'etendard du 1er escardon du regiment de dragons NAPOLEON, modele 1805-1813.
B) Revers du meme modele.
C) Avers de l'etendard du 2e escradon du regiment de dragons NAPOLEON, modele 1805-1813.
D) Revers du meme modele.

Apologies for the lack of accents in the above text. Note there is much more text against each planche. Let me know if you are interested in seeing any further info.