"Afghans leave special forces to die" Topic

Elite Afghan special forces overrun because other arms of the defence forces were too scared to help them.

link

Doesn't bode well for once US is out. Taliban will win because they want to win. The Kabul government never had any real legitimacy with the people.

I hope everyone is very clear eyed about what will happen here. This is the "fall of Saigon" all over again. The Afghan army will collapse, is already collapsing, and the Western sponsored and imposed government will fall. There will be, already are, atrocities being committed. In particular women will be oppressed and little girls will be denied an education and taught that they are second class citizens, indeed they will become "goods and chattels" again in the coming Afghanistan.

All the blood and treasure we have poured out, my own country of Australia, the US, the UK, Canada, Poland, Germany and so many others, will be wasted BUT MUST NOT BE FORGOTTEN. Very sad.

nsolomon99, the lesson is very valuable – don't waste money and resources trying to bring medieval tribal conflict ridden countries into the 21st century.

nsolomon99, it's already forgotten here in the US.

Here we go,

Tally Ho!

None of our saints and high ground morale wielding media and "elites" give a cf about these people nor do feminists.
Did I hear that the baby went into Chinese hands to keep the usefull minerals coming from there?
Different rules, no instagram…
What a waste of wealth for 12 years and waste of lives.

Who amongst us thought there would be a different outcome after the disastrous British and Soviet forays into Stan? It can't get better than this. So back to the Warlords vs Taliban vs ISIS with the civilians caught in the middle.

Some very good comments … Yes sadly the US/NATO has wasted too much blood & treasure on this failed "state". They brought it on themselves by letting AQ/UBL take safe haven there. Along with their backward 15th Century predilections for killing those among them of different religion, ethnicity, tribe, mullah/warlord affiliation, etc., etc.

So back to the Warlords vs Taliban vs ISIS with the civilians caught in the middle.

Many non-combatants were killed but much of that blood it on the local warlords, mullahs, etc., hands. And they don't care as long as they remain in power. Taliban shoot any little school girls lately ? How's about ISIS ?

If the USA was not concerned about CD. There would be places there that would look like the dark side of the moon. Without the use of WMDs. Many places there looked like that anyway from what I was told and had seen.

The joke about blowing them back into the Stone Age had more truth than fiction. Again you couldn't tell the difference …

You can't free a fish from water …

Legion, it was always "blowing them forwards into the stone age"!

Tally Ho!

Various sources reported way back that Rumsfeld and Cheney blew up at any of the planners who asked what our plans were after we conquered Afghanistan. "Shut up and do your job! That's not your problem!"
Or as Sean Hannity would say, "Why do you hate America?"
So they did their job. Planned a successful invasion. That has never been a problem, conquering Afghanistan. Read history.
Unfortunately, having read history, even Flashman, has never been a requirement for holding top office.
History would/should have told them that holding on is the hard part. Having a new policy every time there's bad news doesn't help.

Nick +1 LOL !!!

OFM I agree with much of what you posted there. Many in charge … shouldn't be. And that paradigm continues … 'nuff said …

it was always "blowing them forwards into the stone age"!

A bit like they saved Libyan citizens from Gaddafhi's largely hollow threats by destroying the country and condemning it to an state of eternal civil war.

What do "feminists" have to do with this, Jcfrog?

Arealdrone, different situation, with public opinion forcing the hand of a liberal thinking western governments because Gaddafi was killing some of his own people. From my time in both areas the people of North Africa are very different to the tomato farmers in Afghanistan, although as expected by many in Libya, Tribalism is strong. Of course it is not just Africa and the Middle East where we see tribalism rear its head when a strong leader goes with the break up of the former Yugoslavia, which in Bosnia saw warlords often working to secure their own positions.

Tally Ho!

Nick +1

Nick,

Americans are also culturally myopic and assume everyone is a freedom loving, Coke drinking individual whose sole life ambition is to drive an SUV and own a large television.

The American perception of humanity was best described in Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket (removed offensive term): "Inside every foreigner is an American trying to get out."

That's part and parcel of a number of American concepts such as manifest destiny and American exceptionalism. It is the underpinning of post-WWII American foreign policy

Basically America has an evangelical drive. Killing people to liberate them from tyranny is viewed as perfectly acceptable.*

*And like most evangelicals, hypocrisy is perfectly acceptable – thus Commies or Russians are bad but Islamo-Fascist states where women were up to recently stoned for driving and where people get hacked up in embassies are great allies.

The joke about blowing them back into the Stone Age had more truth than fiction.

"bomb them back to the stone age" originates with humorist Art Buchwald.

It is best remembered, however, from Curt Lemay's ghostwritten autobiography.

arealdeadone – Nick it a former UK soldier … just FYI …

And I think you have a bit of a skewed academic take on modern America … E.g. manifest destiny if never mentioned and was only heard about in history books. But it may be there in some form now? But with CRT/1619 being or trying to be taught in many US schools … who knows ?

And American exceptionalism. You don't hear that mentioned very often today either.

Basically America has an evangelical drive. Killing people to liberate them from tyranny is viewed as perfectly acceptable.*

I have not heard or seen anything like that. The US overall today is getting less religious. You must be reading a very old "playbook" … I live here … I have the news for hours. While I do things in my my home office, etc. I think you are fighting the "last war" … or more likely the one before that.

Most Americans are willful, self involved, have little to no concept of history or even the recent past. They want to know who won the ball game last night, whose on Oprah, and what happened on their fav soap opera, etc. Couldn't find most places mentioned in the news, if they even watch the news(?), on a map, etc., …

Don't get me started on the US media !🤬😡😠

We got in the bad habit after our performance in two world war. That made us think we are 🦸‍♂️🦸‍♀️ … I mean the ones that are paying attention … The rest … who knows ?!?

That IMO this is why many of our elected & appointed leadership keeps getting reelected. Or elected even in the first place. Just say you are going give everybody something for free and you'll probably get elected. Keep the masses fat, dumb & happy[i.e. bread & circuses]. They will be too busy to notice what is going on and being done by those who are supposed to be leading and taking care of "we the people" …

thus Commies or Russians are bad but Islamo-Fascist states

Yeah ? So ? You say that like it is a bad thing …

Legion, American elites still believe in American exceptionalism even if they don't say it openly. Spreading "democracy" to Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are prime examples of this. Intervening in Yugoslavia is as well.

Insisting Russia kowtows to America is also an example.

As for evangelical drive I wasn't talking from a religious perspective but rather that the American elites consider spreading the American way through any which method (including JDAMS) as a sacred mission – ie American exceptionalism.

Yeah ? So ? You say that like it is a bad thing …

So you consider being a great ally with a country that dismembers people in its own embassies, used to kill women for driving (and still does for adultery), executes dissidents, and is committing war crimes in Yemen with American assistance IS A GOOD THING?!?

Obviously you have no morality save America is right.

American elites still believe in American exceptionalism even if they don't say it openly.

I'm not so sure about that. They are much more self-serving, etc.

that the American elites consider spreading the American way through any which method (including JDAMS) as a sacred mission – ie American exceptionalism.

Highly doubt that … the American Elites are more like the old American "robber barons" in the USA's past. It's all about the $ …

I don't think you really understand much of the way America does things looking from the outside looking in. You give the Elites too much credit … Again it's all about the …

Yeah ? So ? You say that like it is a bad thing …

That was hyperbole … if I have to explain it … it's not funny.

So you consider being a great ally with a country that dismembers people in its own embassies, used to kill women for driving (and still does for adultery), executes dissidents, and is committing war crimes in Yemen with American assistance IS A GOOD THING?!?

I couldn't be more more against any of the things you posted. But I don't make US policy about anything. We know how that happens … It starts with voting for the ones with "The Right Stuff" … But as of late even that does not seem to work anymore.

Obviously you have no morality save America is right.

You obviously know nothing about my morality.

On one thread you called me irrational TMP link and now you say I'm immoral … So when in doubt make personal attacks … ?

When did I turn into Darth Vader ?

I'd rather be Bruce Willis …

Or the Rock !

American assistance in the fight for Yemen vs. the Iranians and their Yemeni guerrillas is a bad thing?

To be "fair and balanced" the Iranians and their allies kill their own people, and others, for the same reasons you've accused the Yemeni government of. In fact, they also just "elected" a man who is accused of killing thousands of Iranian people in order to maintain "order" in the country.

From what I've read, it seems many in the region prefer Toyota trucks and Mercedes sedans, though I'm sure there are some that like their air conditioned, American-built SUVs as well.

I do suppose some living in Afghanistan would also like to trade in their small TVs for big screen ones, when/if they can get them, but that is probably of lesser utility given the lack of Afghan-created programming for the locals.

"Basically America has an evangelical drive. Killing people to liberate them from tyranny is viewed as perfectly acceptable".

Your take on this is extremely misguided AND wrong.

America IS exceptional, and has done the most of any country on the planet to try to provide financial and military aid and other support to those seeking freedom and democracy, for the last 100+ years.

Obviously you have no morality save America is right

deadone, I think you are dead wrong with this statement. You are smart and well read, but this is just an emotional response because you disagreed with something Legion wrote. I've never met Legion but I know he is a former US Army officer and seems like a straight shooter. I think you owe him an apology.

America IS exceptional, and has done the most of any country on the planet to try to provide financial and military aid and other support to those seeking freedom and democracy, for the last 100+ years.

America IS an exceptional criminal country, and has done the most of any country on the planet to try to kill millions of people and to destroy whole countries in the name of strategic and economic interests.

And American propaganda disguises those crimes using childish fairy tales about freedom and democracy.

Ruchel your statement is laughable. To say America killed more than the communists and nazis in the last century is pure emotional hyperbole. You obviously hate your own country; why don't you movie to the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea, that way you can be with like minded people.

arealdeadone,

Your statement, "Americans are also culturally myopic and assume everyone is a freedom loving, Coke drinking individual whose sole life ambition is to drive an SUV and own a large television." is completely false. Most American don't like being involved in other people's affairs and don't assume everyone wants to be like them. Your other characterizations are wrong as well -- in fact most don't even like Coke (most Americans prefer water or ice tea to soft drinks). Most Americans aren't interested in having a large TV. Admittedly many Americans (especially young people) are overly focused on their cell phones (but sadly that is an international phenomena). You are buying in to the image of Americans depicted by the US media, Hollywood, and the professional political class (who all live in their own bubble). Before you make sweeping generalizations, you should first get to know Americans. Admittedly the task may sometimes be more difficult than some realize, because people from different regions of this country often differ more from one another than people from different countries in Europe differ from from each other. That said, while your characterization of Americans in general is wrong and misguided, I will admit that your characterizations of the political elite (and by extension, you could add the corporate elite and leaders in entertainment/media) often ring true. The fact that American policy makers don't represent the interests or address the concerns of most Americans is best illustrated by the growing disenchantment (on the left, right and center) with the professional governing class and their backers.

It is foolish to accuse an entire nation that it is criminal, stupid, greedy, or has some other flaws. More precisely, it is criminal. Sooner or later, this attitude will lead to the temptation of a simple solution – "kill them all."
Of course, there are some national characteristics, shaped by external conditions and the historical path that these people have traveled. Let's take the same Afghanistan as an example. It has not changed for more than one hundred years. Weapons, vehicles, some household items are changing – but these are only decorations. Empires come there – and go again. No visible result. Why? Not because people are stupid or evil there. You can place any of them in a civilized society (having previously got rid of the influence of its traditional "medieval" society, of course), and after a while it will be a person who has completely adapted to life in modern society. Especially – his children, who grew up in modern society. But the trouble is that the entire Afghan society has not yet passed the necessary path, has not developed for the perception of the values ​​of the 21st century. You can kill them as much as you want – but you cannot make a person happy against his will.

You cannot blame a soldier for being a soldier. For thinking like a soldier. Seeing and understanding the situation as a soldierg. It's like blaming the hammer for being the murder weapon. The hammer is not to blame – the one who used it in this way is guilty. And the thinking of a military man is always somewhat peculiar – but this is just a professional deformation of consciousness and people of any profession are subject to it.
And classes in society)))

The United States is so keen on promoting freedom and democracy in the world that it is ready to do it by force, regardless of the readiness and opinion of the majority of people in those countries to which they carry their "values" – on the wings of bombers. And here the United States is no different from the former USSR, which also imposed its ideals on other countries by force of arms. There is a tale where the one who killed the oppressor-dragon, wanting to free people from tyranny, himself turns into a dragon. A very wise tale.

Ruchel your statement is laughable. To say America killed more than the communists and nazis in the last century is pure emotional hyperbole. You obviously hate your own country; why don't you movie to the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea, that way you can be with like minded people.

No, my statement is not laughable, It is the truth. You should deal with it. You prefer to laugh at those despicable crimes committed by the US. It is a typical example of moral turpitude.

This is not a competition over which country has killed more people. It is another childish reasoning.

The real fact is that American actions and interventions have caused millions of victims, and have destroyed whole countries, around the world.

People who accept or support those American crimes belong to two basic categories:

1- Ignorant and uneducated people who believe in American propaganda about 'freedom and democracy'. This category includes, obviously, people with severe cognitive deficit.

2- Fanatical nationalist people who accept any atrocity committed by their country. Insane people whose immorality goes far beyond any limit.

I am not American. I do not hate common people from any country. I condemn and despise criminal policies carried out by any country.

But the trouble is that the entire Afghan society has not yet passed the necessary path, has not developed for the perception of the values ​​of the 21st century.

Why is that a 'trouble'? Who consider it as a 'trouble'? The Afghan people or the Western people?

Regarding 'the necessary path', what is 'the necessary path'?
Is the 'Western path' the necessary path you are referring to? Why is it 'necessary'? Necessary for who? For Afghan people or for Western people?

Can the Afghan people follow their own path? Is the Western path the universal pattern to follow?

Can the Afghan people develop their own path according to their specific history and cultural characteristics?

Can the Afghan people work for their own improvement without foreign invasions and without cultural impositions?

Please, avoid the narrow minded ethnocentrism.

The hammer is not to blame – the one who used it in this way is guilty.

Well, governments are guilty. But common people (and soldiers are common people) who accept and support criminal policies are guilty too. Because soldiers and common people are not machines (not yet). They are human beings, and the human beings are moral subjets (moral entities).

The United States is so keen on promoting freedom and democracy in the world that it is ready to do it by force,

The US criminal policies (bombings, interventions, invasions, support to paramilitaries and terrorists, support to dictators, support to coups, torture, and so on) have nothing to do with 'promoting freedom and democracy'. Those criminal policies were (and they are today) carried out in the name of economic and strategic interests.

The fairy tale about promoting freedom and democracy is despicable American propaganda, very suitable for uneducated and fanatical nationalist people.

American assistance in the fight for Yemen vs. the Iranians and their Yemeni guerrillas is a bad thing?

To be "fair and balanced" the Iranians and their allies kill their own people for the same reasons you've accused the Yemeni government of. In fact, they also just "elected" a man who is accused of killing thousands of Iranian people in order to maintain "order" in the country.

From what I've read, it seems many in the region prefer Toyota trucks and Mercedes sedans, though I'm sure there are some that like their air conditioned, American-built SUVs as well.

I do suppose some living in Afghanistan would also like to trade in their small TVs for big screen ones, when/if they can get them, but that is probably of lesser utility given the lack of Afghan-created programming for the locals.

"Basically America has an evangelical drive. Killing people to liberate them from tyranny is viewed as perfectly acceptable".

Your take on this is extremely misguided AND wrong.

America IS exceptional, and has done the most of any country on the planet to try to provide financial and military aid and other support to those seeking freedom and democracy, for the last 100+ years.

USAF +1 Many thanks … But I'm pretty sure arealdeadone won't mention calling me irrational or immoral. It does not really bother me … I've been called worse here … 🤩 But you and many others here get where I'm coming from.

Kevin C. +1 I agree …

It is foolish to accuse an entire nation that it is criminal, stupid, greedy, or has some other flaws. More precisely, it is criminal. Sooner or later, this attitude will lead to the temptation of a simple solution – "kill them all."

Bingo ! Interestingly Cuprum is a Russian & I an American. As I have always said many of us in both nations have more in common than otherwise. We don't agree in everything and won't become BFFs in most cases. But I think many Russians tend to be "realists" as do many in the USA. Certainly not all of course. However, we don't have to worry to much about tripping over unicorn in our reality. Verse some ideologues, academic intellectual, SJW, etc., who live in some alternate concept of reality.

You cannot blame a soldier for being a soldier. For thinking like a soldier. Seeing and understanding the situation as a soldierg. It's like blaming the hammer for being the murder weapon. The hammer is not to blame – the one who used it in this way is guilty. And the thinking of a military man is always somewhat peculiar – but this is just a professional deformation of consciousness and people of any profession are subject to it.
And classes in society)))

Very, very, true Cuprum … From my POV with 4 years as an ROTC Cadet, 10 & 1/2 years in 4 active duty combat Infantry Bns, etc. Plus a year or so in the USAR with 6-8 months as an MI officer. I may have a pretty good "working knowledge" of what I speak. I'd think … for the most part.

A soldier on the ground when engaging the enemy and vis versa. Only knows/thinks of the survival of their comrades and then themselves. Those who sit in comfortable classes rooms, in gov't, etc., and make broad biased inaccurate statements. Know little about what happens or cares about what occurs when "the Kimchee hits the fan".

Generally intellectual liberal academics know next to nothing about soldering. And much of the "Real World". They only know what biased, skewed information that fits their narrative, agenda, etc.

Some who only refer to the US as being criminals, etc. Should be glad they live here and not somewhere else. Where elsewhere freedom of speech etc. is not always present.

Much of what some posted here is laughable, to say the least. Again their training and life experiences allows them to have no concept of many things. E.g. when it comes to geopolitics/Realpolitik, etc. They have the liberty to believe as they wish as we all do. Regardless of the veracity of the information. And no matter what, you are always going to have at least two competing beliefs, etc.

1- Ignorant and uneducated people who believe in American propaganda about 'freedom and democracy'. This category includes, obviously, people with severe cognitive deficit.

2- Fanatical nationalist people who accept any atrocity committed by their country. Insane people whose immorality goes far beyond any limit.

Pretty broad brush IMO … not realizing or understanding those who believe like that is a very small minority. But it appears that makes little difference with these type opinions, IMO. And no matter what some believe, I and everybody else is allowed to have an opinion. Regardless how crazy, etc., some may see it. Even if in reality it ain't …

As far as A'stan … the US and it's Allies responded to a heinous attack, on our homeland e.g. like Pearl Harbor. The US, etc., had no choice but to respond. Quickly and with deadly force. The USA could have used much more firepower, not using WMDs of course. But limiting CD, etc. of course. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wearing rose colored glasses, etc.

In A'stan the USA + went after terrorists and just as importantly the leaders responsible for this and other attacks. Before 9/11 and 9/11 of course. The A'stan gov't who allowed AQ to use their land to plot attacks on the West. Ended up "reaping the whirlwind". Just as Japan had to in WWII.

Again some don't get that … and trying explain it to those types, is like trying to … E.g. tell them the world is not flat and the Moon is not made of green cheese.

Their mind is made up before you say a thing …

When in a nice clean warm room classroom, well fed, comfortable, etc. Some forget …

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
― George Orwell

And they will never ever get that and as importantly don't want too … But sleep well … you are safe and comfortable …

Verse some ideologues, academic intellectual, SJW, etc., who live in some alternate concept of reality.

Of course, American atrocities and crimes (bombings, interventions, invasions, support to paramilitaries and terrorists, support to dictators, support to coups, torture, and so on) are real. It is reality. But it is a criminal and immoral reality.

Please, remember a basic lesson: real things do not mean good things. Reality does not automatically imply morality. Sadly, reality is full of immoral and criminal things: for example, all the atrocities committed by American policies.

Accepting reality does not mean accepting immorality. It is easy to understand.

In A'stan the USA + went after terrorists and just as importantly the leaders responsible for this and other attacks. Before 9/11 and 9/11 of course. The A'stan gov't who allowed AQ to use their land to plot attacks on the West. Ended up "reaping the whirlwind". Just as Japan had to in WWII.

There were no Afghan terrorists. Most of them came from your regional 'Allies'.

Many criminal paramilitaries and terrorists have been trained by Americans in the US territory. So, following your reasoning, the US must be attacked, bombed and invaded.

The invasion of Afghanistan was a failure from the beginning. When the invasion started, most AQ leaders went to Pakistan. So, AQ was not destroyed, and the Taliban were not destroyed. But thousands of civilians were killed in the useless process.

The war in Afghanistan was a failure. The Taliban keep on fighting today.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Many Afghan and Iraqi people do not sleep peaceably in their beds at night. They sleep in their tombs, without peace and forever. American courtesy.

Ruchel, America and Americans are much more diverse than your narrow jaded views. There exists a wide spectrum of differing thoughts from Americans on the subjects you raise. There are plenty of incompetent people in our government, but Americans have always been a generous and welcoming people. We did not conquer and possess nazi Germany and imperial Japan after WWII, but helped them rebuild and rejoin the community of nations. We welcome immigrants from all over the world, and people still come here because we are a good nation.

There were foreign fighters from all over the islamic world. In A'stan and Iraq. They were jihadis, terrorists, etc. 9/11 gave us no choice … It had to be done. UBL is dead, Al Baghdadi is dead and many other radical islamic leaders & minions. Maybe some missed this, both AQ and ISIS are no where near as effective as they once were. Because we killed many of of them.

And I understand that reality can be and is very messy, dark,grim, gritty, etc. Bad things happen in a conflict … Sometimes very bad things.

The Taliban, tribes, warlords, mullahs, etc., in A'stan will continue to fight with or without the US and NATO, etc. there. As we see there is nothing anyone can do about. I have said this before. Hindsight is 20/20, we should have not supported the Muj in any form. The CIA's original plan was let them all bleed themselves out. The locals, foreign fighters, etc., and the USSR.

Many Afghan and Iraqi people do not sleep peaceably in their beds at night. They sleep in their tombs, without peace and forever. American courtesy.

Yes, again that is what happens in a conflict. Were all these Afghans and Iraqis non-combatants ? Or actually probably most were enemy combatants. Not matter who they are or what they call themselves. E.g. Taliban, AQ, the Iraqi Army, etc., etc.

Again if the USA wanted to we could turn some places in these regions/areas into the dark side of the Moon. Without WMDs … Imagine how many dead Afghani, Iraqi, etc., would be "sleeping in their tombs" if that was the case. You have no idea how much damage can be done by massive use of air and naval assets.

I wouldn't say the we lost … there was no way to "fix" backward religiously and tribally, etc., dominated places. E.g. A'stan & Iraq … Unless they want to move into the last Century on their own. They certainly are not ready for the 21st. But the US and our Allies killed a lot on the enemy, whoever they were, whatever they call themselves. From a ground troop's perspective that says something.

And I hope you & those who think like you do, don't forget to point those same accusing fingers at … Say, China/CCP, Putin, North Korea, Iran, etc., etc. the list is long. The USA is far from the only one with "dirty, bloody" hands … Our hands are probably cleaner than most …

⭐ USAF +1 You got it right … again … 👍👍

Maybe some missed this, both AQ and ISIS are no where near as effective as they once were. Because we killed many of of them.

Not in Afghanistan. When the invasion started, most AQ leaders went to Pakistan.

The lack of effectiveness of AQ has nothing to do with the criminal invasion of Afghanistan. That invasion was useless and nonsense. Nowadays the fighting continues.

ISIS arose in Iraq as a consequence of American invasion and occupation. It is simple: no invasion, no ISIS.

we should have not supported the Muj in any form.

That is the point. The US supported the emergence of AQ and the Taliban during the last years of the Cold War. Congratulations!

Were all these Afghans and Iraqis non-combatants ? Or actually probably most were enemy combatants. Not matter who they are or what they call themselves. E.g. Taliban, AQ, the Iraqi Army, etc., etc.

Most of the victims were civilians: hundreds of thousands. Some sources put the documented death toll at several millions of civilians (direct and indirect victims).

But the US and our Allies killed a lot on the enemy, whoever they were, whatever they call themselves. From a ground troop's perspective that says something.

No, that says nothing. The US and their lackeys killed hundreds of thousands of civilians during the invasion and ocuppation. Yes, they killed some combatants (few in comparison with the number of civilian victims) buy they have lost those wars because they have never achieved the main objectives. And the resistance fighters keep on fighting.

From a military point of view those wars were a failure and a disaster.

Nobody should be proud of that military performance. Great powers with the most advanced armies against a bunch of Third World combatants. Congratulations again!

And I hope you & those who think like you do, don't forget to point those same accusing fingers at … Say, China/CCP, Putin, North Korea, Iran, etc., etc. the list is long. The USA is far from the only one with "dirty, bloody" hands … Our hands are probably cleaner than most …

I agree. Sadly, many countries have committed, and commit today, atrocities and crimes. The USA is not the only one, but your hands are not cleaner than most. This is not a competition.

There exists a wide spectrum of differing thoughts from Americans on the subjects you raise

Obviously, that 'wide spectrum of differing thoughts from Americans' had no effect (and has no effect today) on those American policies (atrocities and crimes). Because those American policies have been carried out for decades, and nobody has changed them. Supposedly, most American people agreed with those policies, or they were 'victims' of American propaganda. And nothing has changed today.

We welcome immigrants from all over the world, and people still come here because we are a good nation.

Many nations welcome, and have welcomed, immigrants from all over the world. Nations such as France, UK, Germany, Spain, Brasil, Argentina, and many others around the world, have welcomed and welcome millions of immigrants. This fact alone has nothing to do with being 'a goog nation'.

AQ was operating in A'stan and still are. Some did cross into Pakistan, regardless and we sent in drones after them. ISIS has a "branch in A'stan too.

That invasion was useless

So we should have sent them a harshly worded letter ?

ISIS grew in Iraq when the US pulled out …

No, that says nothing.

I don't think so. Killing the enemy and it's supporters is always useful.

The US and their lackeys killed hundreds of thousands of civilians during the invasion and ocuppation. Yes, they killed some combatants (few in comparison with the number of civilian victims)

So you still don't understand that happens some times in COIN. We learned this is not Vietnam. We did some things differently. But yes CD happened … it is almost unavoidable. The US would deny fire support & CAS many, many times for fear of CD. From my POV as a Plt Ldr and later a Co. Cdr. That would mean my troops, my men would end up taking more losses. I don't like that, not at all. So again CD will happen …

You understand that in COIN the insurgent hides among non-combatants? That is just the way it works. So yes, some CD will happen. That is just fact.

From a military point of view those wars were a failure and a disaster.

And your military training & experience is ? IIRC = 0

Nobody should be proud of that military performance. Great powers with the most advanced armies against a bunch of Third World combatants.

By saying that only proves you know little about fighting an insurgency and trying to avoid CD.

The USA is not the only one, but your hands are not cleaner than most. This is not a competition.

Dirtier than the PRC/CCP, the former USSR, Iran ? I think not …

Just to make my position clearer … as I said on another thread here –

However, being a former Grunt and Officer. If we put our troops in a combat zone like A'stan. I'd hope we'd be able to support them properly… period …

As a former Infantry Ldr/Cdr with over 10+ years training & experience. The radios man-packed or vehicle mounted is my most powerful weapon. I/we don't want an "even" fight. I'd want to use all the firepower available in my Plt/Co. and otherwise, e.g. mortars, FA, CAS, Gunships, Naval fire support, etc., etc.

In a firefight I/we want to kill all those trying to kill us. And bring my troops out alive. The enemy … their bodies can rot and be eaten by the birds.

That is the reality from my POV.