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"Hispanic Group Sues Over Destroyed Obelisk" Topic

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21 Jun 2021 6:29 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Crossposted to Renaissance Discussion boardCrossposted to 19th Century Discussion board

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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian21 Jun 2021 6:29 p.m. PST

A New Mexico Hispanic fraternal order is suing the mayor of Santa Fe over damage to a historical monument by activists last year and the city's proposal to permanently remove it…


Col Durnford21 Jun 2021 6:38 p.m. PST

Good for them. Best wishes in their struggle to protect history.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP22 Jun 2021 3:25 a.m. PST

And what exactly does this have to do with miniatures? Bill, if you keep doing this, it's no good pretending to be dismayed over politics tearing the place apart.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian22 Jun 2021 3:28 a.m. PST

We discuss history here, Robert.

jdpintex22 Jun 2021 6:48 a.m. PST

Apparently everyone's historical monuments are being torn down.

Maybe it's a conspiracy from modern artists who need work? :)

Blutarski22 Jun 2021 7:59 a.m. PST

It is all purely a matter of coincidence. Nothing to see here. Move along.


0ldYeller22 Jun 2021 12:52 p.m. PST

Remember recently when "activists" defaced the monument in Boston to the 54th Mass. When asked why? they did not know what it represented. Hammerheads.

Swampking24 Jun 2021 2:37 a.m. PST

"We discuss history here." – nice thought but not quite accurate, Bill. We discuss aspects of military history. If I posted a thread on the history of toilet paper, it might be interesting but members would be correct to call into question my sanity, as toilet paper has nothing to do with pushing lead around a table or painting 1792 Lithuanian pocztowy.

With all due respect, the past posts related to the destruction of monuments, the renaming of American military bases, the reinternment of Forrest and his wife, etc. have nothing at all to do with the type of history that TMP SHOULD [just for emphasis] be discussing. After all, the name of this site is The MINIATURES Page, not The History Page. If you want to turn it into that, by all means, knock yourself out – but I won't be a part of it.

Any post that reflects the current American Marxist Cultural Revolution is, by definition, political and/or cultural but NOT about military history or about our shared hobby. The only reason I am a member of this site is because I want to get away from the lunacy present in academia and current society over issues of race and historical memory or how that history is celebrated.

I agree with Robert, these posts have NOTHING whatsoever to do with our hobby and should be removed. Furthermore, any post not related to our hobby should be banned. If it affects our hobby – like posts about the current skyrocketing cost in metal because the Chinese are trying to corner certain metal markets or the skyrocketing cost of postage, etc. or how do I get the right shade of blue for faded blue uniforms, by all means, post away. Otherwise, this site might as well turn 'Woke' and go broke.

Just had to get that off my chest. We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

EJNashIII24 Jun 2021 10:33 p.m. PST

Editor Bill. Afraid to disagree. Once again, politics. Not miniatures or wargaming. You know, the minature pages. Fair is fair. Do I now get to talk about Jim crow (historical) comparisons to current voter laws? Messing with you aside, really, the modern politics creeping into the civil war pages is annoying, unneeded and unwanted. You can't find and actual historical civil war topic to talk about? You really think starting such nonsense will help the cause of these statues? More importantly, bringing it up will not just prove to the people who want to get rid of them that it really is all about racism all along and they are right? Why else are you talking about it and worked up by it? You are shooting yourself in the foot.

Nick Stern Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2021 10:46 a.m. PST

EJNashIII +1

Trajanus25 Jun 2021 12:52 p.m. PST

Totally agree on the state of this board.

I have my own views on some of the politics that are taking over and point a finger at views of others that I could chose to blame. No doubt the holders of same would point right back.

The loser is the quality of discussion. The ACW board was always informative and often eye opening in direct relation to the War itself.

Topics that play out modern political issues under the cloak of ACW interest are slowly strangling debate and driving off potential contributors.

Changing the name of a base or reacting against such a decision is in the here and now and adds nothing to the examination of how the conflict was fought.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2021 1:54 p.m. PST

Is this not also what Tango was castigated for?

Never mind the political nature of the topic itself, of course.

What we have here is firstly a direct quote from another site.

We then have the word "link" without naming the site.

We have not one word of added content. That is it

Now I always thought that was fine, and even here I followed the link. But recall the grief Tango took over this kind of posting.

Dn Jackson Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2021 8:17 a.m. PST

"The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
George Orwell

So yes, I would say this is about history.

EJNashIII27 Jun 2021 10:04 a.m. PST

It can be about history and not be relevant to wargaming and minatures. I.e., doesn't belong here. It can also be about history and be 100% about the modern politics of modern racism. I.e., is offensive and embarrassing to the people who pay the bills. Got it, now, Jackson? If you want to post all day about it on Parler, feel free to express your history. I don't care. The people who pay the bills likely don't care. Unless of course, Bill wants to call this "the history page" and lets go back to the bull of open politicalism (in this case a dog whistle) over games. Which shall it be? I'm game, which ever it shall be. I imagine the people who pay the bills might think differently, though. Are you willing to pick up the tab? While I critized Bill, for some poor judgement like we all make from time to time, I do appreciate what he has created here. It would be a sad thing the businesses decide to pull out their support because of not what he said, but the offensive posts it was guarenteed to encourage.

Dn Jackson Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2021 9:48 p.m. PST

It never ceases to amaze me when people come to this website, created by Bill, and proceed to tell him what belongs here and what doesn't.

I'm sure he's quite grateful that you're here EJNashill to let us all know what is offensive and thus protect Bill's income. I mean, heck, your selflessness in doing this is far superior to telling yourself, "This isn't something I want to read about, I'll skip it." Your willingness to shut down discussions you don't agree with to protect Bill is laudatory. Thank you.

Cleburne186328 Jun 2021 2:55 a.m. PST

And that's what this is about. Protecting Bill's income. He has to keep the people coming back and reading. Even if it means going off topic from the purpose of the page. Its the forum's version of clickbait.

Trajanus28 Jun 2021 8:04 a.m. PST

If he got paid by the post the Slavery, or the 'Peculiar Institution' thread would be a nice earner!

As would "These Are the First Military Bases Whose Confederate Names"

Neither of which has informed my knowledge of the Civil War by an inch!

EJNashIII28 Jun 2021 1:13 p.m. PST

DN Jackson, nice how you picked and chose on what I said. I said I would support the change. If we are going hog wild on the politics, then do I have free reign? What are the new rules? I guarentee I can think of some political/ slightly connected to history topics that would have made chairman Mao blush. Fill up the board real quick. fair is fair? right? I Still agree with Trajanus, though, and prefer it his way. You know actually talk about real civil war topics instead of right wing racist dog whistles or my responses. However, maybe you are right. Is Bill making a statement that only right wing people and their statements are acceptable or wanted here? I don't know? Maybe you are right? Maybe liberals and people of color are not wanted here. Well Bill, is he right? or wrong?

Au pas de Charge In the TMP Dawghouse28 Jun 2021 1:33 p.m. PST

"The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
George Orwell

So yes, I would say this is about history.

Where is the first Orwell quote from? I see it get quoted on here a lot but it's not in 1984?

The second quote would indicate that history is a fiction which whomever is in charge spins as a sort of propaganda. Therefore, that at every point in the past, whomever was in power shaped and crafted their past and that by the time it gets to us it is basically just a pack of lies. Thus, it sounds more like Orwell meant that people should consider history suspect and constantly revisit and re-investigate it to find out what actually happened and not depend on what has been handed to us.

In any case, that was a party slogan about falsifying and destroying records except for the ones that served the party's purpose. It didnt involve adding more opinions and analyses which presumably would make for a more, not less, balanced view of the past. Additionally, the exchange in the book was to make people believe and repeat things that couldn't be true as a sort of ultimate power trip.

I'm not sure that statues are history or that removing them from a certain location is the erasure of history.

EJNashIII28 Jun 2021 2:03 p.m. PST

Agreed Au pas de Charge. It is interesting that a statue of say Lee is seen as if it is Lee rather than a hunk of metal not much different from a leg lamp. link Just decoration in a park. Sometimes nice, some time just embarrassing. Definitely, embarrassing to Lee.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP28 Jun 2021 2:08 p.m. PST

I have been falling into these difficult discussions myself on some of the political posts, with mixed feelings.

I have looked around for the American Marxist Cultural Revolution and only find it in some media. None of my right wing or left wing friends are Marxist or Fascist. Still Americans all, wondering where we are going with all of this.

I have looked at the removal of statues and favored having additional context provided for them, only to find that the people tearing them down do not even know who the statues represent. As a nation we are losing sight of our history. Washington did not "secure the airports" during the Revolution, nor did he "ram the ramparts."

The "cultural wars" are just a way for big media powers to make money off of us, in my opinion. And they are tearing us apart. It is not unworthy of discussion here. It will be history soon enough.

Clays Russians28 Jun 2021 6:45 p.m. PST

Oh great, more politics!

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Jun 2021 5:02 a.m. PST

Lets agree that people who tear down statues with historical persons will sooner or later look at what miniatures represent and probably have their take on Confederates, Conquistadores or wait Nazis?

I remember that during the gulf war of 91 some factions wanted to shutdown the wargames (conquer) some IT students played on a regular base. When they blocked the access to the building we had to threatened them that we will do what is necessary to enter.

If we do not discuss this now, it will be about miniatures and wargaming soon.

That said, I assume the final judgement on this debate will go to the editor himself.

Who started this particular debate.

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP30 Jun 2021 5:16 a.m. PST

And what exactly does this have to do with miniatures? Bill, if you keep doing this, it's no good pretending to be dismayed over politics tearing the place apart.

Please note the following, especially the end of the comment 'including history.' This is the 'title' of the Civil War Discussion Board.

For discussion of anything related to ACW miniature wargaming, including history.

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