"Shaking Hands" Topic

I learn a great deal about people when I shake their hand. It is a very telling form of non-verbal communication. I understand the science of disease transmission through handshaking (required to take annual training on the subject for work).

I realize some folks do not like handshaking, for diverse reasons, and I respect their choices and their feelings. But like I stated, it is a powerful, informative means of non-verbal communication, which is rather useful in business relations, particularly in job interviews. Like it, or not, it is used in that capacity, and it makes a strong impression in interviews, and initial meetings.

It is an incredibly useful tool. I've employed it for decades, both to learn about the person I am meeting, and to convey information about myself to the people I greet.

The fist bumping and elbow bumping, is nowhere near as informative -- I learn practically nothing from it, compared to a handshake. This past year has been difficult for me, as I enjoy handshakes. YMMV.

I was a practitioner of martial arts for 10 years. I became a practitioner of bowing within the dojo. While it had its own, unique qualities, and subtleties, it was was still nothing like a handshake. I would never adopt it outside of the dojo, unless I moved to a country where it was the cultural norm. In my geographical region, handshaking is the cultural norm, and I look forward to practicing it again. Cheers!

Actually, both the head bow and the head lift are cultural norms within the US. I wouldn't think taking your gloves off in Minnesota would be a cultural norm.

Right now where I am it is the country norm. Interestingly, I it is not as much a "universal" norm here as some other areas. In other places, if you make eye contact with someone, anyone, any circumstances, you owe them at least a head nod bow. Here, not so much. Of course, there is the data collection bias that once people see my face, they are averse to making eye contact .. ;)

As a devotee of predictive analytics, I am interested to know if you would normally interpret the weakness of my handshake as "Wow! That dude must be taking a significant amount of anti-seizure medication to mitigate the nerve damage he sustained in the military."?

I think handshaking is over in the San Francisco Bay Area. I haven't shaken hands since February 2020.

I'm not quite there yet … after so long, hand contact still seems a bit weird. Maybe next year …

Phil

I've been trying to introduce a hale and hearty Ave Citizen! but no one seems to want to reciprocate.

Strength and honor!

Years ago, when I was teaching, a parent came to see me and we shook hands. He then told me he had just come from hospital where they had done tests but didn't know what was wrong with him…

I had to wait until he had departed before rushing to scrub my hands.

Perhaps Covid will cause us to rethink long practised customs or habits that have previously contributed to the spread of disease. Wearing appropriate face masks outdoors – which is common in some Asian countries – could also save us from breathing in so much traffic fumes and other pollution.

Etoheipi

You live in a country where everyone is in plastic bubbles?

I've never shaken hands before or after any game with anyone anywhere. Perhaps since cons I attend are board game or RPG, I never see handshaking?

For over 35 years when someone shakes my hand at church my wife instantly douses my hands with sanitizer, especially when the person has sweaty palms. Ewwww. (I have too many nurses and doctors in my family!)

Outside of N95 masks, all the other masks people wear are simple talismans and protect people from Covid like chain link fences protect us against flying Tic Tacs. That is the science, folks. Stop listening to the BS. Size of virus vs size of mesh. We have 100s of new N95 masks and other PPE in our garage (a medical family) but I never wore one of them.

You live in a country where everyone is in plastic bubbles?

I am visiting a country where bowing is the cultural norm. Hamsterballland is next month.

Outside of N95 masks, all the other masks people wear are simple talismans and protect people from Covid like chain link fences protect us against flying Tic Tacs. That is the science, folks. Stop listening to the BS. Size of virus vs size of mesh.

Size of the mesh vs size of the virus is not the science.

First, N95 masks are normalized for 95% protection against things 3 microns or larger. Three microns is on the high end of the virus size. N95 is intended to prevent inhalation of bigger things like Anthrax, or other airborne organisms.

The virus that causes COVID-19 is not airborne.

It is, however, very resilient outside the body and can live in water droplets in your breath (and your skin, re washing, sanitizing, etc.). That's what you're trying to mitigate.

A surgical mask is about 60% effective keeping such things out, but 90% effective keeping them in. Wearing a mask is about caring about others, not yourself.

Along those lines, the 6' social distance (horribly named) gives you about another 80% protection.

How the system of protection works is 90% mitigation of risk of you introducing the virus into a contained air environment. 80% of the residual 10% risk mitigated by distance. Then 60% of the residual 2%, taking you down to about 0.8% risk of transmission, not infection.

HEPA filters for recirculated air, minimizing number of exposure possibilities, and minimizing exposure along the time dimension are the next set of layers.

etotheipi, Minnesota has Summer temps of 100+ F, and Winter temps as low as -50 F. Even in the Winter, we shed our coats and gloves, indoors. ;-)

Weakness in a handshake is one of many subtle qualities of non-verbal communication. I rely on many other cues to make an assessment. Eye contact, body language and voice inflections, along with many other qualities, all work together to evaluate a person I meet. I worked as a Security Officer, at a very dangerous place, in the 80's. I learned quickly to use non-verbal cues -- I had to, as part of the job. I took up martial arts several years later, after I quit that job.

I have interviewed a number of people over the past 30+ years. I evaluate people quickly, with/without handshakes. A handshake is just one tool, reserved for typically non-dangerous situations.

There is a great deal of misinformation and fear mongering going on, by governments and medical professionals, like Dr. Fauci, the king of flip flops. This, too, shall pass. The World will be very different in a year. Ride the storm out. Pandemics occur roughly every 100 years. We were due. Cheers!

Hip bumping as a greeting probably not a good idea for those up there in age. Should be acceptable in hockey games or discotheques, though… ;-)

@etotheipi, ? I think your analysis is pure garbage. Please stick to wargaming, I would love to "Play" you.

@arthur1815, this topic was somewhat encouraging, until your contribution. Not bothered by your own CO2 wearing the mask for hours? To each their own.

+1 Sgt Slag, thanks for bringing back some semblance of truth. Re: handshakes, I always can get that "first impression" if someone comes back with a "firm" handshake Vs. a "limp" handshake. Some things are universal.

No, I prefer to err on the side of caution.
The 1st person I plan on touching is the girlfriend… probably sometime next year when we are possibly allowed to meet up.

Etotheipi

I had an interesting conversation the other day with an older lady. Essentially, and without much detail, her opinion was that this virus was knockin' 'em down like cord wood. Mine was that it's a bit more like the common cold.

She pointed out that she had a friend who died from it. Without getting into comorbidities and all that stuff, I simply said that I believed her, but that, if it was the black death that everyone seemed to think, one in for people she knew would be dead. She replied that the news said it was more like 1 in 10.

I said, okay. Are one in 10 of the people you know, dead?

For a moment, at least, the light seemed to be coming on.

But who knows

I think your analysis is pure garbage. Please stick to wargaming,

Based on your assertion that surgical masks don't do something they aren't intended to do?

PDF link

I can get you access to about 5GB of detailed data, if you would like to read the ~1.5K pages of background material so you can properly run the numbers yourself.

For a moment, at least, the light seemed to be coming on.

Glad to hear it. COVID isn't "The Doom That Came to 2020". And it isn't just like every other disease. It's worse in most ways than the vast majority of diseases. But it's also controllable.

We don't know as much as we would like to know about it. But we do know enough to make many risk decisions (and we never know everything to make them).

Everybody shouldn't get vaccinated. Everybody should make their own risk decision. If you decided (for or against) and you didn't take a couple days to think through the known effects of the disease and the known effects of vaccination in the context of your current and predicted future health, then you didn't make a vaccination decision. You made an emotional one based on some external stimulus.

Life takes more thought than it did when our expected lifespan was between 30 and 40 where your main risk decision was not starving/dehydrating in the next few days vs not being killed by a predator.

Not bothered by your own CO2 wearing the mask for hours?

No, because it escapes out of the mask when you exhale, if it didn't you wouldn't be able to breathe fresh air in. All this nonsense about a build up of CO2 is just that, nonsense.

Wearing masks is idiotic.

etotheipi

Glad to see we can disagree reasonably.

I would agree with you that it is worse than other diseases, but here, I imagine, we will diverge wildly, when I say that I believe it is worse solely because of political manipulation.

But since we DO seem to be able to disagree reasonably, I'll ask what you think of that.

To me, Covid was simply one of many Destroy Trump At All Costs scare tactics. Anyone who needs proof of that need only look at the flip-flops by Fauci regarding masks and staying indoors, as well as the nigh miraculous drop off in fatalities since the present Canelot-like administration came in.

But I am sure you feel differently, and welcome your response.

I will append by stating that I had covid, and voluntarily. The circumstances were as follows.

My girlfriend of the time was working in a hospital, and tested positive for it. She was pretty scared to say the least, and nothing I could say would calm her down.

In -mild- desperation, I smiled and kissed her full on the mouth. I said, "whatever, you have, I now have."

We broke up early this year for unrelated reasons, but I did get a somewhat nasty flu about a week and a half later.

I did what I always do: I drowned it in vitamin C, and at the advice of a holistic doctor, in vitamin D. A week later I felt great and still do.

I will point out that I am in reasonably good shape, and 56 years old.

Anecdotal evidence? Of course, but, as you seem to agree, the mule carts filled with dead bodies do seem in short supply.

No to handshakes, fist bumps, elbow pokes, hugs, kisses, frottaging or anything else that brings people outside of my immediate family and medical professionals within 6ft of me.

I'm happy with social distancing. 😁

Just get the shots. Don't worry, it won't hurt.

the mule carts filled with dead bodies do seem in short supply.

Would you like to take a trip to India? I cam arrange that.

If you're in reasonably good health, will actually take care of yourself, live in a first world country, and can take several days off of work, most likely you should just suffer through and move on to the next thing.

Other healthy people who have access to care when then need it are not those about whom I worry.

when I say that I believe it is worse solely because of political manipulation.

Then you really need to read up on the disease.

Transmission rate, fatality rate, incubation/infectivity time, after effects … all are worse than most common diseases like influenza.

I would have a hard time giving a cold bucket of farts on a rainy day about what any politician (of any stripe) says about the disease, or their approach and policy on the matter. I care about the actual words on documents that have the force of government behind them. The rest is theatre. For theatre, I prefer Fractured Fairy Tales.

Just get the shots. Don't worry, it won't hurt.

Thank you for your considered medical opinion, taking into account my personal medical history and risks.

"Thank you for your considered medical opinion, taking into account my personal medical history and risks."

Sorry brother, I didn't realize you had already received the shots as you indicated in another post. But I was also speaking to the gaming community at large.

In the 1990's I was a steady customer at a Vietnamese barbecue place in the food court of a large mall. After a while the owner and I became good friends. The poor chap had a really bad limp because his leg was shriveled. He was 27 years old at the time.

One day while talking to another customer, he casually mentioned that the cause of his handicap was polio. I told him not to feel like the Lone Ranger because I had also had polio and that was how I got the cool withered arm that kept me out of the draft. I added that between the two of us we could come up with one complete, physically fit person and we shared a grim laugh.

I told him I was born in 1951, the year before the worst polio outbreak in the United States. I caught mine at the age of sixteen months, three years before a vaccine was first offered to the public. He said that his village in Viet Nam didn't get it in time and that was why he had caught it.

I couldn't believe it. What a tragedy! By 1990 everyone in the world should have had the vaccine and Polio should have been eliminated forever!

That is why I have repeatedly urged everyone to get the COVID-19 shots. It doesn't have anything to do with which political party is in power, it's just common sense.

Now with regard to the subject matter, I never did like elaborate Hollywood hugs, or even "manly hugs," or hugs of any kind in public.

I'm familiar with the European origins of the hand-shake (Openly showing that you are not armed) and the whole thing about demonstrating confidence and sincerity in a job-interview, but I'm not applying for a job anymore and the risk of transmission is too great.

Fist-bumping and elbow-bumping are also a non-starter because they bring you to within 24 inches of the other person's face.

I like Japanese bows, but most Americans probably wouldn't, so how about a simple nod?

Just acknowledge the other person's presence and get on with it?

"Would you like to take a trip to India? I cam arrange that." etotheipi

THANK YOU-My friends and I would like to get the Taj Mahal, and Kashmir package. We would be departing our country with it's 1,848 deaths per million (0.00184), and going to a country with 271 deaths per million (0.00027). So it looks like the mule carts will not be there.

But hey, why let the facts interfere with emotion while you are really reading up on the disease.

I am also a firm believer of handshakes. Doing 30+ years of interviewing, giving proposals/presentations and establishing clients, it has been invaluable. It is also is a welcome greeting in social situation. Yes you can gauge information by the handshake. Refusing to shake hands has it's indications as well.

In the US Handshake is THE social norm. The head bow/lift are forms of greeting but based on usage they are not the norm. In order for two norms to exist, they have to be equivalent and occupy the same topography. Predictive index study should have made that clear.

Also careful using eye contact as a form of greeting many Asian cultures consider this an affront.

Finally, (I just have to say it) Facemasks will not protect you from pollution, at least here in the US. There are no longer (thankfully) gross particulate matter in the airs we breath. The main culprit consists of gases and fumes. You would need a respirator or gas mask.

That is why I have repeatedly urged everyone to get the COVID-19 shots. It doesn't have anything to do with which political party is in power, it's just common sense.

It's not common sense. It's a risk decision. I got my shots, but I am vehemently against talking heads who say "It's safe." That is a factually correct lie. The information is accurate only because it is a broad, meaningless statement that doesn't provide any useful context for making decisions. Personally, I interpret an air of condescension behind it, "I would tell you the detailed facts, but you're too dumb to use them and will likely react to the inappropriately."

We would be departing our country with it's 1,848 deaths per million (0.00184), and going to a country with 271 deaths per million (0.00027). So it looks like the mule carts will not be there.

link

Check your facts and check your relevant facts. There has been a recent spike and there are literally carts (hand carts, I don't know of any animal pulled ones) being used to evacuate infected people and corpses.

I actually handle the real data for the disease on a nearly daily basis. I notice you did a great job in sourcing your number. Depending on how you define the denominator and numerator, you can make any comparison outcome you want. Relevance is not in the numbers, it's in the methodology.

I will accept business class, from O'Hare to Delhi.

Your own link says it peaked on May 8th and it is falling. I would think that it is a relevant fact, don't you?

Would relevance be better served by total numbers of deaths? (Whoops no they have a much lower figure then we do as well). But you "methodology" is to take a single snapshot to prove your point. In fact, my wealth and portfolio is greater than Jeff Bezo's (June 15th, 1987)

"You know how I know that they're finished out there? The carts. They're using carts to lug their supplies and wounded. In my dreams I saw the carts."

In all fairness there are remote areas of India that still use the Bullock Cart for their normal mode of transportation. So it would make sense to use the same for their dead. As a course of normal life. I am afraid my itinerary will not afford me the chance to see them. But I can try to send you a postcard.

It's not common sense. It's a risk decision.-etotheipi

One hundred percent agreement with you. Without completion on Clinical Trial Phase 3, which takes between 1-4 YEARS. Not to mention the usual time frame of up to two years for Phase 2, (and yet I did). After Phase 3, comes… you guessed it Phase 4. This study looks at the long term effects of the drug. The word safe, is not a fact. While there are millions that hope it is true, it does not make it so.

Please note I am not advocating for or against the vaccine, either way.

BTW, without completion of Phase 3, there is no acceptance from the FDA. Which nullifies all liability claims against the manufacturer.