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"Queen's Rangers 1777 Uniform Question" Topic


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jgreaney11 May 2021 5:01 a.m. PST

I'm planning on modelling the Philadelphia campaign in 28mm and I was wondering what the Queen's Rangers uniform would have been during this campaign. My understanding is that the iconic regimentals offered by the Perrys are post-1778 and there are some possibilities for 1777.

I've seen them done most often in green faced black, green faced blue, and green faced green.

The first seems to be based on William Jarvis's 1790s regimental coat found in Canada: green faced black with a stand-up collar. It would certainly be visually interesting to do but I'm not aware of any evidence for it in the earlier period. There is however a portrait of Simcoe in what appears to a 1770s regimental with facings of either black or dark blue.

The other two are probably based on whether or not the regimental colours were originally blue or green. Various flag makers offer regimental flags in blue, but the surviving Canadian flag is green – possibly either the flag is from a later period or has faded to a different hue with age. Lefferts has the 1780 uniform as having blue cuffs and collars and Funcken give them blue facings (but green colours!)

Could anyone offer any recommendations or insight?

historygamer11 May 2021 5:10 a.m. PST

I am pretty sure they had the standard Loyalist Green coat faced white for the 1777/1778 time period.

link

The re-enactment unit that portrays QRs appeared in a green regimental coat, faced white, overalls, and round hats at events commemorating the Philly campaign of 1777 and Monmouth 1778.

Brechtel19811 May 2021 8:55 a.m. PST

From Simcoe's Journal, as referenced in Rene Chartrand's American Loyalist Troops 1775-1784, 46:

'Major Simcoe exerted himself to preserve the [Queen's] Rangers in green, and to procure them green waistcoats with their sleeves during the campaign, and to add sleeves to the shell or outer coat, to be worn over the waistcoat in winter; green is without comparison the best color for light troops with dark accoutrements, and if put on in the spring, in autumn it nearly fades with the leaves, preserving it characteristic of being scarcely visible at a distance.'

Further, the corps wore mostly hats prior to 1780 and the gradual uniform change. The green coats were lined in white, and so their turnbacks were white, but apparently the facings were usually green and sometimes black.

historygamer11 May 2021 9:28 a.m. PST

I think that is a later period for the QR. I believe in 1777 they were green, faced white. I'm not sure Simcoe was even a part of that unit in 1777, and he certainly wasn't in command if he was.

historygamer11 May 2021 9:32 a.m. PST

Rogers did not prove successful in this command and he left the unit on January 29, 1777. The regiment had suffered serious losses in the Battle of Mamaroneck, a surprise attack on their outpost position at Mamaroneck, New York, on October 22, 1776. Eleven months later, on September 11, 1777, they distinguished themselves at the Battle of Brandywine, suffering many casualties while attacking entrenched American positions. They were then commanded by Major James Wemyss. On October 15, 1777, John Graves Simcoe was given command, when the unit became known informally as "Simcoe's Rangers".[2]

historygamer11 May 2021 9:51 a.m. PST

Going to need FB access for this one:

link

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2021 10:10 a.m. PST

This is one of those long lived units whose uniform varied over time.
My first QR unit was Hinchliffe. Gilder must have really liked them, since he also gave us the Hussars (maybe 40 men in "real life") and Grenadiers (maybe 30).
I used the plates from the Elting edited "Military Uniforms in America". Black facings, and the unique cap.
Being a frugal gamer, I have no wish to have a different uniform for each year or campaign.
I've rebuilt this unit with Old Glory, same uniform. Perry also. OG provides Grenadiers and Highlanders, as well as the usual. Use the Perry Highlanders with flat bonnet.
Perry additionally have the Hussars, artillerists, and even amusette.
Anyone's British Legion figures can be used for the QR Dragoons.

Since Elting is infallible, my QR Highlanders have the red McNabb tartan. Report me for heresy, if you must.
I prefer the green flag, instead of the blue.

For me, the QR are green with black, wearing the QR cap. YMMV.

I have a Spencer's Ordinary game coming up. Nary a redcoat in sight.

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2021 10:11 a.m. PST

Funny that the unit still exists in Toronto.
They hold a cherished coat in their display.
Over the last two centuries it has faded to a lighter green.

Sadly, the Offices and Sgts' mess decided to model their mess jackets off their faded example without taking into consideration 240 years of fading.

Any time one of them visits another unit they get welcomed with, "Hey put your jacket on the table and let's play some pool".

42flanker11 May 2021 10:27 a.m. PST

The upright jacket collar would definitely be a post war development, circa mid 1780s.

historygamer11 May 2021 11:09 a.m. PST

The one in Canada is, I believe, a 1790s coat, and has no direct relationship the AWI QR.

John is right, this unit, like many, changed uniforms over time.

Since the OP referenced his interest in the 1777 campaign, I referenced what I am 99.99% sure is the correct uniform for the QR in that campaign, not the later uniforms so often favored by artists, books, etc.

troopwo – I am not sure what is left of the QR in Canada. I don't think much. The current largest QR unit is in the south – VA, NC. That unit, which is very well researched, fielded at Monmouth in 2018 with the kit I hope you can see on their FB page – warrant green coat faced white, round hat. They have also fielded at the Museum of the American Revolution in support of the Philly campaign event held there – in the same kit – but they usually wear the more familiar late war uniform down south at events.

Brechtel19811 May 2021 12:53 p.m. PST

I think that is a later period for the QR. I believe in 1777 they were green, faced white. I'm not sure Simcoe was even a part of that unit in 1777, and he certainly wasn't in command if he was.

Simcoe took command of the Queen's Rangers in 1777 and held that billet until 1783. He took over from James Wemyss in October 1777.

Two other references for the unit, in addition to the above mentioned book by Rene Chartrand, are:

-Simcoe's Military Journal: A History of the Operations of a Partisan Corps called The Queen's Rangers, commanded by Lieut. Co. JG Simcoe during the War of the American Revolution by John Graves Simcoe.

link

-The Queen's American Rangers by Donald Gara.

link

And Rene Chartrands book can be found here:

link

historygamer11 May 2021 1:28 p.m. PST

So how does that advance the discussion? I already posted Simcoe only took over in October.

Personal logo Silurian Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2021 2:10 p.m. PST

It's usually interesting when discussions morph a little. I always appreciate more references.

historygamer11 May 2021 6:31 p.m. PST

Look at the Facebook page I posted and scroll through their photos. You'll see the first uniform of the QRs there.

It makes sense that they were issued the standard Loyalist green faced white uniform first. It was just a regular battalion at that point. Simcoe took them in a different direction. You do have to wonder when their kit changed. I'm sure that's documented somewhere. My guess would be 1779.

I'm basing that assumption on the fact that Simcoe took over too late to affect the 1778 uniform issue, which was likely already on the way there.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2021 6:40 p.m. PST

Errr…
Don't use "Turn" as your uniform guide. (Hint. Simcoe wasn't psychotic…)

Brechtel19812 May 2021 4:22 a.m. PST

The uniform watercolors by Captain James Murray, circa 1780, show the unit in the uniform variations that are most familiar. Three of them, showing the light infantry, grenadier, and hussar of the unit are in Rene Chartrand's Osprey on pages 16, 17, and 18. A portrait of Simcoe is on page 19 of the book and show's Simcoe in a dark green coat with a dark green collar and black lapels.

The uniform plate in Military Uniforms in America: The Era of the American Revolution edited by John Elting, shows the later uniform of 1778-1783 depicting a rifleman, a grenadier, a hussar, a highlander, a light infantryman, and an officer. The narrative for the plate is on page 44 with the uniform plate on the facing page.

'The British originally furnished their Provincial troops with green uniforms with various colored facings. These were replaced with red coats in 1778, but Simcoe was able to retain the green color for his Rangers. The uniforms shown in this plate are based upon several watercolors by Captain James Murray of the Rangers, preserved in the Toronto Central Library. They show the Rangers as they appeared after 1778.'

historygamer12 May 2021 5:45 a.m. PST

"The uniform watercolors by Captain James Murray, circa 1780, show the unit in the uniform variations that are most familiar."

Yes, and that is what my wargame figures look like for this unit. But the OP asked specifically about the 1777 campaign, and their uniforms likely did not look at all like the later period uniforms.

"The uniform plate in Military Uniforms in America: The Era of the American Revolution edited by John Elting, shows the later uniform of 1778-1783."

I believe that new uniforms were usually issued at the beginning of each year (though usually there and in storage prior). That makes it highly unlikely that the 1778 uniform worn by the QR changed before their march out of Philly in 1778. It would take time to request such changes, have them made up in England, then shipped over here – a period of time not achievable before Simcoe took over command in October of 1777. My speculation anyway.

I believe the re-enactment unit linked above, was working from primary sources on how the uniforms looked in 1777/78 vs the later period uniforms. So much new information has become available now that many of our older books are just simply out of date.

Bill N12 May 2021 6:47 a.m. PST

the standard Loyalist Green coat faced white for the 1777/1778 time period

I am curious what the basis for white being the standard facing color is. My sources indicate the initial facing colors for the green coats sent out in late 1776 were white, green or blue at a ratio of 2:2:1. If correct that means white was a common color but fell far short of being the standard color. As to which the QR drew, I have no idea.

Also it is my understanding that in the early years what uniforms provincial regiments wore depended on what uniforms were in the army stockpile in New York. Some units were being switched from green to red for the 1778 campaign season, but Simcoe could have said "If there are any green coats left, we would like them."

historygamer12 May 2021 7:10 a.m. PST

In 1777 there still weren't many Loyalist units being planned – as they hoped the war would be over soon.

I'm going from memory here, but, I can't think of any Loyalist units originally issued blue faced clothing. The re-enactment Yorkers, a few years back, switched from previously green coats faced blue to red facings. That would be for early war. I think this is reflected in Troiani's painting of Oriskany (1777).

Clothing issued in NYC for that year largely seems to have been green faced white (see the original issues to the NJ units). Again, this would have been orders made in 1776 to issue in the winter of 1777 – with no major plans to stand up lots of Loyalist units.

As you know, blue was usually reserved for units with the honorific title of being Royal – though for the Yorkers' , that apparently wasn't the case in their earlier uniform.

I also seem to recall that the Loyalist uniforms were paid for directly by the Treasury. Not sure if that changed as commissions were issued to people to raise regiments and as some Loyalist units were taken onto the permanent establishment.

I'll ask the experts I know regarding QR for 1777 – which is the period of interest to the OP.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2021 7:38 a.m. PST

I've often wondered about the red coated Loyalists that had blue facings.
I also thought that blue facings were "reserved" for Royal regiments. Was it simply because the Government office in charge got a "deal" on blue cloth for facings? Stranger things have happened.

historygamer12 May 2021 8:06 a.m. PST

I think it was for a mix of reasons. I know some Loyalist units simply purchased uniforms from line regiments too.
I'll ask the expert.

Au pas de Charge12 May 2021 11:51 a.m. PST

I really want to get a unit of red or white faced, green coated Loyalists in a mixture of hats for the center co., a light company in caps and a bearskin wearing grenadier company.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2021 12:09 p.m. PST

Loyalists in bearskin cap would be a stretch.
But when did good advice from TMP "experts" ever stop anyone?
"As the Colonel shall decide."
Or, do as thou wilt.

btswanfury12 May 2021 12:52 p.m. PST

Hi! I'm one of the guys in the recreated QR whose Facebook post was linked above.

Just based on what we know (I'm not the uniform expert) our conclusions are that the QR was equipped in the standard green faced white coat, white waistcoat, and white breeches with contract round hats in the fall of 1776. During the Philadelphia campaign, they would most likely have followed standard British army practice at the time and exchanged their breeches for tow cloth or Russia drilling gaitered trousers. While wintering in Philadelphia from 1777 to 78 they would either have been wearing these trousers or (more likely) switched back to breeches with wool leggings. They would have had this look throughout their actions NY/NJ/PA through 1779.

For the purposes of modeling them, I would just use the Perry boxed British battalion plastics and use the round hat options. I like the late-war Perry QRs (good for the southern theater) but for some odd reason they're equipped with cheesebox style canteens instead of British tin canteens.

btswanfury12 May 2021 1:00 p.m. PST

Also, presumably at some point the QR would have switched to green coats faced green, but I don't know when that was and would assume it would have been in late 79 or 80.

historygamer12 May 2021 3:47 p.m. PST

Thanks for sharing. Makes sense to me.

Some gamers seem to forget that QRs didn't start out as such a good unit. It developed over time, as did it's commanders.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2021 9:13 p.m. PST

They started out with Rogers in command, God help them.

42flanker13 May 2021 1:54 a.m. PST

@historygamer

I am not sure what is left of the QR in Canada. I don't think much.

The Queen's York Rangers (1st American Regiment), a reserve recconaissance unit based in Toronto is, via a busy lineage, the descendant of the Queen's Rangers reinstated in Canada by Simcoe.

historygamer13 May 2021 2:55 a.m. PST

I'm not sure where the second part came from, but I was referring to the reenactment unit mentioned by a previous poster.

I have an update from a person who is considered the authority on Loyalists.

jgreaney13 May 2021 4:42 a.m. PST

Thanks all, it looks like I'll be going with green faced white when I finally get around to them. That does have the benefit that they might more easily stand in for other loyal regiments in other theatres if I need them.

Whatever about Rogers, they seem to have performed admirably under Weymiss during '77 and withstood a bit of a beating at Brandywine.

historygamer13 May 2021 5:12 a.m. PST

From Todd Braisted, "the" leading authority on Loyalists

- Yes, green faced white was the only color combo for Provincials in the Army in America (NOT Canada: separate army and supply system) in 1777. I have attached a brief uniform documentation for our unit (IVNJV), which not only covers the period but will give you perhaps a better overall view. I also recommend this page of my website: link

For the Queen's Rangers in particular, there really is nothing specific until they get those fancy duds in February 1780 for being on the American Establishment. It is clear however that what they wore before this however was not the same thing.

Brechtel19813 May 2021 6:43 a.m. PST

Walter Dornfest's Military Loyalists of the American Revolution: Officers and Regiments 1775-1783 is also an excellent reference. However, it does not cover uniforms.

Bill N13 May 2021 10:59 a.m. PST

So you are relying on Todd's conclusion Historygamer, but what is he relying on. I've been through the information on Todd's website that you linked to and I am not seeing it. I will concede that just because London was supposedly sending out coats with facings other than white does not mean those coats with other facings were issued in early 1777. The presence of green coats in the inventory for issue in 1778 suggests there were coats left over from 1777. However the fact that we know of one or two Loyalist units wearing white facings in 1777 does not IMO support the claim that white facings were the standard or only ones issued.

Au pas de Charge13 May 2021 11:36 a.m. PST

They started out with Rogers in command, God help them.

I know! I watched him in Turn, he was so uncouth and ruthless.

historygamer13 May 2021 12:02 p.m. PST

Bill:

Todd is widely acknowledged as the authority on Loyalist topics. I did not ask him for details, as this is a hobby site not a re-enactment forum.

Todd does not have all of his research posted on his webpages – likely, not even close.

There were few enough Loyalist regiments to equip in 1777, let alone issue coats with different facing colors. If you have some documentation that states otherwise it would be interesting to see. And, as Todd said, Canada was a different command altogether – so that at least explains the different facing colors coming out of there.

I was having a little trouble understanding some of your post:

"I will concede that just because London was supposedly sending out coats with facings other than white does not mean those coats with other facings were issued in early 1777."

I got lost on that one.

"The presence of green coats in the inventory for issue in 1778 suggests there were coats left over from 1777. However the fact that we know of one or two Loyalist units wearing white facings in 1777 does not IMO support the claim that white facings were the standard or only ones issued."

Do you have a specific unit in mind, or evidence that this was not the case? I'll post again what Todd wrote -

"…green faced white was the only color combo for Provincials in the Army in America in 1777."

That seems pretty definitive to me. Only. Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2021 3:41 p.m. PST

I actually find it quite easy to believe that the only facings color available was white. It's cheaper that way. I would even believe that the cloth wasn't the highest quality either.
Supplying uniforms to Loyalist units could not have been the highest priority for the army, or whatever bizarrely disconnected bureaucracy actually supplied uniforms.
"Normal" British regiments famously had their own supply system. They even had their own "regimental" chemists to supply the dye to make their own unique facings color. Did you ever see how many shades of green facings there were? Buff? Yellow? A lot, and all strictly controlled by the Regiment.

So, supplying a variety of facings to a Loyalist regiment that wasn't even on the Establishment was not a high priority.
So, without any proof, I'm willing to believe that Loyalists were supplied with cheap green coats, and like a Model T, the facings could be any color you wanted, as long as it was white.
Hoity toity regiments came later, AFTER 1777, which is what the OP isn't interested in.

Having said that, I'm not replacing my own hoity toity Queen's Rangers with the black facings and leather cap. grin

historygamer13 May 2021 3:48 p.m. PST

Me neither. :-)

Bill N13 May 2021 7:51 p.m. PST

I should have started with Haarmann.

It appears my previous source may have combined two separate shipments of clothing sent out from Britain for Provincials in 1776. The first from September includes green coats lined white. The second from December contains red cloth for coats and white, green and blue cloth for facings. An April 1777 New York paper says several provincial regiments were "mostly clothed" and "Their uniforms were chiefly green faced white". Haarmann indicates elsewhere a number of provincial regiments were in red by the end of the campaign season, and there is a prisoner description of two provincials wearing green coats, white waistcoats and breeches, but no reference of facing colors. I read that as saying green faced white was common but not universal in 1777.

Getting back to the subject of the post, Haarman says in 1777 the Highland Company of the QR were furnished with highland dress and a piper. The other companies were "in green and accoutered for concealment". There is nothing about the cut of the clothing. He notes the accidental shooting of a hussar in 1777 would lead to the adoption of a high cap. Haarmann also says that the QR caps were issued in 1780, replacing hats that had been worn up to that time.

historygamer13 May 2021 8:20 p.m. PST

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this author. Could you provide some more context?

Brechtel19814 May 2021 3:32 a.m. PST

I should have started with Haarmann.

Are you referring to Albert Haarman?

His article 'Some notes on American provincial uniforms' contained in the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research in 1971 is in the bibliography of Rene Chartrand's volume on Loyalist units and Chartrand believes it to be 'The essential study on this topic; notably, it reproduces the 1777 List, Wiederhold's 1783 Ms Almanack, and the uniform notes in the copy preserved by the New York Historical Society of the 1783 North American Army List. He also wrote, for the same publication, 'The Roman Catholic Volunteers', 'Jamaican Volunteer Corps', and the 'Jamaican Provincial Corps.'

It appears, without seeing or reading what Haarman wrote, that he may be a, if not the, authority on the subject.

Brechtel19814 May 2021 3:42 a.m. PST

Haarman's article is available online. I have the article and highly recommend it.

Bill, +1 for the recommendation.

Bill N14 May 2021 6:03 a.m. PST

Albert Haarmann was active in the 1970s. Katcher used some of articles as sources for his Encyclopedia of British, Provincial and German Army Units. Given that additional research gas been done since he published his articles I am not sure I would say he is THE authority, but IMO his Some Notes on American Provincial Uniforms is a good general source.

historygamer14 May 2021 6:29 a.m. PST

From Todd:

The New Jersey Volunteers was the largest Provincial regiment raised during the American Revolution. As a Provincial regiment serving in America, it fell under the auspices of the Inspector General of Provincial Forces, Lt. Col. Alexander Innes. Provincial Forces were not a part of the Regular British Army, which was under the control of the War Office. As an extraordinary expense of the army, the Provincial Forces operated through the Treasury Office, which handled requested for clothing, accoutrements and camp equipage.

For all Provincial units raised in the 1776 Campaign, uniform clothing was non-existent. Officers and recruits simply served in what they wore from home when they enlisted. Edward Winslow, Muster Master General of Provincial Forces, commented on the situation encountered by the first unit raised in the area, the New York Volunteers:

At the inception of the new office, Innes could offer little but guidance to the new corps raising, as uniforms for Provincials would not arrive at New York City before the end of March 1777. Prior to that at New York City, soldiers served only in what they brought from home, except for some minor articles Innes was able to somehow scrounge. A February 1777 recruiting notice for the 2nd Battalion, New Jersey Volunteers promised new recruits a "hat, Shirt, shoes and stockings."2 The day before an inspection of the King's American Regiment, Innes informed the corps he could supply it with "a few pair of Shoes & Stockings [if] necessary for their better Appearance…"3 The situation was alleviated by the end of March 1777, when clothing ordered from England six months previously arrived in New York City, as reported in the newspapers: "The several Provincial Corps already raised, are mostly cloathed, and make a very handsome Appearance. Their Uniform is chiefly Green faced with White, and made of the best Materials.4

The clothing that was issued to all the Provincials raised in the New York City area originated on 30 August 1776. The London newspapers reported "Monday a contract for cloathing 5000 men was given to Mess. Muire and Atkinson, who are also to furnish 30,000 yards of flannel to keep the soldiers legs warm."5 It was no small task to assemble uniforms so quickly. The firm of Mure, Son & Atkinson decided on green as the color (brown being the other color considered) and set to work to find sub-contractors. By 14 September 1776, the firm wrote to Sir William Howe:

We were…on the 30th Augt. directed to provide Cloathing for 5000 Provincials & a pair of thick milled Woollen Mittens for every man in both armies, and to take up & arm Shipping Sufficient to carry the whole together with the Camp Equipage, Shoes, Stocking[s] & Linnen for the next Campaign, as far as the Agents could get them ready in contradiction of all the Clamors respecting the decay of Manufactures &ca. – it is an absolute truth that [there] is scarce an Article of all these things to be found ready made that the price of every thing is increased & still rising & that we are oblidged to obtain Goods of all Sorts from the Makers as matters of favor & preference whilst their Workmen are universally Engaged in Combinations & all the Licentiousness arising from a Superabundance of employment, we have taken the Steps which appeared to us most likely to Secure what is wanted in the Shortest time possible…6

There was little specific detail listed as to the clothing. The order sent to Mure, Son & Atkinson was for the following items:

"5000 Uniform Suits including 4 Serjeants, & 2 Drums to every 100 – The Coats green, lined with white Baize, Waistcoats & Breeches white & white Buttons. Cloth & making the same as for the Army and not better.

10000 pair of Shoes
10000 pair of Stockings

10000 Yards of Woollen Cloth for Leggings

Linen for 10000 Shirts with Thread &ca to make them

10000 Rollers

5000 Rounds Hats

5000 pair of Buckles"7

The second batch of Provincial clothing was somewhat more specific in point of materials. The coats were to be made from 2 yards of wool, with ¼ yard for facings; waistcoats and breeches made from 1⅝ yards of white wool; baize lining for coats at 1¼ yards; brown linen for linings, and pockets 3⅜ yards; 5 dozen buttons to each suit of clothing; 2 yards of dark brown wool per pair of leggings and 3½ yards linen per shirt."8 Buttons were almost certainly white metal, marked "RP" with a crown. Countless examples have been found throughout America, including places garrisoned by the New Jersey Volunteers. The 1780 clothing shipment specifically mentions "Royal Provincial Cloathing marked on the Button."

There is no actual arrival date known for the shipping carrying the first Provincial clothing, however, Sir William Howe reported on 1 April 1777 "I have the Satisfaction to inform your Lordship that about 1500 Suits of Provincial Clothing have already arrived which being extremely wanted are very acceptable to them…"10 This was the only clothing sent during the war that was ready made, therefore little time was needed before the men could wear it. Henceforth, the muster rolls show each company having a "regimental taylor" who would be under the orders of a master tailor in the corps. That the New Jersey Volunteers were issued this clothing is without question. Enemy accounts of them universally refer to the Volunteers as "the Greens." Three members of the 1st Battalion, John Porter, Benjamin King and Isaac Johnston, had been taken prisoner on Sullivan's raid on Staten Island, 22 August 1777. They escaped confinement at Leesburg, Virginia about four months later and each advertised as wearing "a green coat, white waist-coat and breeches."

The article goes on, is well footnoted from primary sources. You get the idea. No mention of any other materials.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP14 May 2021 7:41 a.m. PST

Now I need a generic Loyalist regiment in green faced white. I'm generally loathe to repaint units that have fought well, but, meh, Generic. Plus they haven't been on the table yet. I haven't needed them yet. They were just painted for fun. Old Glory with Kings Mountain heads.

Bill N14 May 2021 8:43 a.m. PST

We seem to be belaboring a point that isn't relevant to the subject. I will therefore be brief and this will be my last post on the subject.

When you said that green faced white was the standard I thought you might have something that specifically said that. Instead it seems we are through our sources working from much of the same orignal material, but we are drawing different conclusions. Haarmann is also well footnoted.

Green lined white isn't the same thing as green faced white. Facing colors could differ from the lining color during that time. The prisoner descriptions do not indicate a facing color. The coats as delivered may have lacked facings.

Uniforms were chiefly green faced white isn't the same thing as saying green faced white or civilian clothing when the author has elsewhere indicated some men were not uniformed. It instead indicates there were other uniforms present. The author just chose not to mention what those other uniforms looked like.

There is also the list of uniforms from the winter of 1777-78 showing a number of units wearing red and the information about red cloth for coats with cloth for white, green or blue facings that was shipped out shortly after those green coats.

As you may remember John I am a big fan of generics for most of my Provinicials as well. If the uniform keeps changing and you are not committed to doing a particular campaign, then chances are however you choose to depict a unit, it will end up wrong. With generic Provincials I can just say "Grab the guys with the green facings for this game".

historygamer14 May 2021 9:29 a.m. PST

Bill, you said: Green lined white isn't the same thing as green faced white.

Todd's reply said:

"The situation was alleviated by the end of March 1777, when clothing ordered from England six months previously arrived in New York City, as reported in the newspapers: "The several Provincial Corps already raised, are mostly cloathed, and make a very handsome Appearance. Their Uniform is chiefly Green faced with White, and made of the best Materials.4"

Seems faced white is pretty clear to me. It was the standard for the first 5,000 Provincial uniforms issued. Since they had no idea the number of different units, why would they issue multiple facing colors at this time? Later, yes, but in 1777? No. That is the period the OP asked about. I think you are placing way too much emphasis on the word chiefly. It could be a figure of speech, or referring to the white facings, bay lining, etc.

Also, the men wore their civilian clothes until issued new uniforms. Could also be referring to that as well. No other uniforms are mentioned, yet you see determined to find something that just isn't there so far.

Bill you said: "It instead indicates there were other uniforms present. The author just chose not to mention what those other uniforms looked like."

Facts not in evidence. There is no evidence to support that, though you are entitled to your own opinion.

Bill, you said: "There is also the list of uniforms from the winter of 1777-78 showing a number of units wearing red and the information about red cloth for coats with cloth for white, green or blue facings that was shipped out shortly after those green coats."

I have no idea what you are referencing here. There were only so many Provincial/Loyalist units in existence in 1777 in NYC and the surrounding area, so I can't imagine where this came from, other than perhaps the Northern Army. There were indeed different color coats and facings found there. Perhaps your author is confusing the two commands?

I grant you there is a lot we just don't know. But for the 1777 NYC issues, it seems pretty clear to me. After that, you'd have to dig into the records, if there are any to be found. What is Haarman referencing for his information?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP14 May 2021 9:43 a.m. PST

True. The same thing can be said about Continental Light Dragoons, or even the 23rd Foot. One could have a unit wearing a fusilier cap. One can argue that Lexington/Concord was a work party, so no fusilier caps. One can argue that they would have worn a shortened coat and round hat during the Philadelphia campaign. One could argue that in the South, the radically different coat (I won't go into that cut just now, but it's different) was worn.
So, am I to have 4 different units to represent the 23rd Foot? Possibly more, since they got a new issue every year?

So, yeah. If I need the specific Queen's Rangers for a game, I'll use the unit I always have, black facings and iconic cap. If I need A LOT of them for a skirmish game like Spencer's Ordinary, I won't hesitate to use generic green coat Loyalist figures with cocked hat or round hat.
So, a few questions.
When did the grenadiers come on board. We're they there for the 1777 campaign, that the OP is concerned about?
When did the Highlander "company" come on board? (Let's not argue about McNabb vs government sett, shall we? grin)
We've already discussed von Diemar's Hussars in a recent thread, so when were they added?
Ditto the light Dragoons. Were all of these suitable for 1777?

historygamer14 May 2021 10:38 a.m. PST

Oh, good questions. :-) And, I agree with your assessment of the figures. Like you, I don't have three sets for each unit, LoL.

Off the top of my head, I'll say that most of those changes didn't take place till 1778 or later. I know they had dragoons at Monmouth, as they opened the battle chasing some Doodles.

This, like the rest of the Provincials (I really should call them that), were evolving units as the war went on. Not sure the Crown thought they needed many of them in 1777, but plans changed, as did the war.

It's my own contention that they sent the 16th Light Dragoons home as so much of the light cavalry duties were taken over by Provincial units.

Brechtel19814 May 2021 10:54 a.m. PST

Bill, you said: Green lined white isn't the same thing as green faced white.

Bill is correct. A regular coat lined with white would have its turnbacks in white. But the lapels, collar, and cuffs could be in another color.

For example, the portrait of Simcoe has a green collar but black turnbacks. It generally depends on the regiment.

Brechtel19814 May 2021 11:57 a.m. PST

The Quebec militia of 1775-1776 were uniformed in green coats, faced green with white turnbacks as the coats were lined in white. This was for both officers and enlisted men.

The unit is described on page 52, with the uniform plate on the opposite page, in Military Uniforms in America: The Era of the American Revolution edited by John Elting. The uniform plate is by H Charles McBarron and the text is by Rene Chartrand.

From the text:

'A Sergeant of each company to receive a suit of clothes each. It is to be made up immediately & directly, to the Patron [pattern] which Mr McLeod, Taylor, will have ready tomorrow which will be a plain green coat, with buff waistcoat and Breeches. As there will not be green cloth sufficient to make cuffs and collars, Mr McLeod will give as much green cloth as will serve that purpose.'

-Orders for November 24 1775.

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