"WotR livery opinion" Topic

I've been reading the back issues oh Hobilar on the CD I got from Martin at Vexillia. I'm also painting up a 28mm Lancastrian force- even though I haven't finished my 15mm WotR army (there's always just one more unit/thing to add- currently French crossbow).

With regards to livery coats, one article stated categorically that the coats weren't "quartered", they were always half and half- ie the left half of the coat was one colour, the right the other. What's more, the coats didn't always match the standards and banner for which colour had precedence.

I've already painted a lot of figures with quartered coats- and won't be repainting them- but after looking through books and also the discussions here, I'm starting to think the article may be right. Contemporary illustrations of the WotR I've found rarely show quartered coats.

It's made me curious about the livery coats and I'm just looking for opinions- as I said, I'm not going to repaint the figures, 28mm or 15mm. Is the article basically right, and would half-and-half coats be far more common, if not universal?

Cheers.

That article is claiming an authority that may be in excess of what the evidence supports.

I don't recall seeing a quartered livery coat but there may be a contemporary illustration or description out thee somewhere. If you like the look of your troops I'd leave it be, all wargame are only a representative and no matter how much research one does it's guaranteed that it will never exactly match reality.

Re quartered vs half-and-half livery jackets, consider how jackets are typically cut up and sewn. Sleeves are usually a single piece, possibly with a cuff of a separate piece. The body of the jacket is typically at least two pieces in front and one, two, or more in back, plus possible collar pieces as well. It would be easy to cut and sew half-and-half jackets, but challenging to produce a truly quartered garment. However, contrasting-color edging would be very easy. Scraps and leftovers from the tailoring could be made up into caps, helmet torses, etc.

One might expect that livery jackets for household servants and upper-middle class retainers would be fancier than garments produced in quantity for issuance to lower-class retainers and clients. I believe that livery cloth or finished garments were typically given only to those in a maintenance-and-livery relationship with the lord (as opposed to badges which I believe were much more widely distributed).

Check here…

link

scroll down.

Hunlion

Eumelus:… consider how jackets are typically cut up and sewn.

The voice of reason.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm always a bit sceptical of definitive claims made about uniforms/troops' clothing and equipment. I know for a fact that modern references can be wrong, despite access to photographic evidence, standing orders on dress, etc. I've worn uniform items, and been issued equipment, that Osprey and other books say were never issued, or obsolete, when I was serving. When we're talking about the late 1400's all we can do is offer "best guess from the evidence that survives". The article made me wonder if some definitive source/s had survived.

So, as Eumelus points out, simply because of ease of manufacture half-and-half was probably most common by far, but there was always the possibility that a special contingent- household troops, perhaps- could have had quartered coats, special trim or some other flourish. We'll never know for sure.

I'll redo some of Roos' archers, which are just started, but leave the finished figures as they are.

@Hunlion- the 28mm will be used for NMTBH, but also some house rules we use for larger games. The Facebook site was interesting, and even quoted the article that inspired this post. However I cancelled Facebook a while ago, so I wasn't able to access everything. Still, thanks for pointing it out- it's in impressive group.

Cheers and thanks, all.

There is an example of liver in 'The return of the Duke of Burgundy', in 'Chroniques' by Jean Froissart, 4th quarter of the 15th century and a latter example in 'Les Alarmes de Mars sur le voyage de Milan' Paris, Bibliothèque Nationale Ms fr. 5089

Druzhina
15th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Thanks, Druzhina. That's a very interesting site, mate. Interesting how the second reference shows the colours matching, but on figure has their livery reversed, compared to the others.

Cheers.

It reminds me of condottiere companies distributing the cloth they received to the men to have their clothes made as they wished.

Druzhina
Italian Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

That's possible, Druzhina. Though I bet it was something along the lines of:

"Here's the cloth for your coats. See him over there? Look at his coat. That's what I want to see you in this afternoon. Like him. Only like him. Not different. Understand? Good. P*** off and be back here in three hours, dressed like him!"

Another interesting site- the missus was interested in that one, though her "Are you building a new army?" didn't sound positive.

Cheers.