"46 years since Reunification." Topic

Just an FYI, Vietnam celebrates 46 years since Reunification today – 30th April 2021.

Things have really changed. We have many Vietnamese officers attending our military colleges. They are bright and eager to learn. Some of them have studied under instructors who shot st their fathers in the late unpleasantness between our nations! Seriously, Vietnam is the only communist nation with which the US maintains serous military to military agreements. The ChineseDragon looms large in the background.

Despite our common foe. the Chinese, these friendly relations with the Communist Vietnamese are very disconcerting.

One of these years I would like to go to Danang since dad was stationed up in I Corps. I have read a number of travel blogs, and they all state that there was not any anti-American animus.

The cane, crutches and walker I got from the VA were made in Vietnam. I'm sure the Vietnam Vets at the VA see the irony …

All of the gifts in the USMC museum gift store were made in Vietnam when last I visited a few years back.

Russ Dunaway

79th PA – hoping you can make it soon. If I am still here I would be happy to show you around a little – work allowing.

You are right – virtually no Anti-US sentiment – especially towards the Grunt level troops and people who are clearly not responsible – due to not being alive at the time!

DaNang was occupied by the US, and never fought over much. So maybe that helps.

Some older people might bear resentment, but you're unlikely to meet many of them.

Sometimes, I wonder what the older people think when they see me. But they are always polite.

Two of my children have traveled to Vietnam and enjoyed the experience immensely

Living there (as does Skarper) must be very different to being a cash-carrying tourist, just passing through the obvious destinations. Anyone who has been (and I envy them) tells me the welcome is great. Maybe this largely based on their experience in the cities, where US contact was more likely to be commercial, than as part of Search and Destroy .

Rural views might then have been different, in the South anyway, but, as pointed out above, most of them were not even alive back then.

"virtually no Anti-US sentiment"

Except in Vietnamese military museums.

3 relatives served (Marines, Army and Air Force). I'm named after the Marine.

I remember decades ago when I went to an unemployment hearing. I answered all the magistrate's question in detail. He asked if that was the end of my statement and I replied,
"Yes Sir." …

Then he took out his smart phone[or whatever they called it waaay back when !]. And started to show me his pictures of his trip to Vietnam. Even thought I had told him I did served there as I was still in high school when it ended. I guess with my military background he figured I'd appreciate the photos. Which I did …

So at that time … I knew I would get my unemployment claim … 😁 And did ! 🤑🤑🤑

Thank you HCM ! Pass the nuoc mam !🍚

😃😄😆😂🤣

"virtually no Anti-US sentiment"

Much of that today is from many living in the USA anyway ! 😁🤩😎

How many hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese were sent to concentration camps for pro-Communist brainwashing? How many were simply murdered? "Reunification" is too kind of a euphemism for the Communist government's forceful occupation of the South.

On the other side of the coin, it's been 46 years since the best and the brightest fled Vietnam and enriched our American society.

As a sidebar … many don't know. Over 30,000 Canadians came to the USA, joined the US Military and went to Vietnam. AFAIK this was illegal in Canada, but none of them were charged. They were after all, fighting the Communists.

Reunification is no euphemism – it is the official name for the event here. Hence I use it.

I think everybody here is aware there were large numbers of people who suffered post 1975.

We've been over that too many times to do it again.

My opinion – for what's it's worth – is that Vietnam is better off now that it would be if the other side had won.

It's FAR from perfect and there is much that I want to see change. But the Saigon regime was much worse and there is no reason to assume it would have miraculously turned into some beacon of freedom and economic success. It took South Korea decades to become a stable democracy and even today has issues – they just don't make the news because South Korea are on 'our side'.

I spent ~3 years in South Korea before moving here – [13 years now]. My impression is people are much happier here on average than in South Korea. Just my impression – not based on statistics at all.

My impression is people are much happier here on average than in South Korea.

Never been to Vietnam and don't plan on going. My experience with 22 months, '84-'85 in the ROK. With the vast majority of the time just South of the DMZ or the 2 tours on it. The locals near the DMZ were pretty happy or at least not upset we were there.

When we went further South to Seoul, about 30-35 miles from the DMZ on a pass, etc. The ones in Seoul, some seemed not to like us that much. While some once they heard we were from up North on the DMZ were more positive.

Regardless … they all were glad to take our money. And in many cases we were glad to give it to them.

But I can tell anyone who what's to listen, the South Koreans are much better off than those in the communist dictatorship of the North.

South Korea decades to become a stable democracy and even today has issues – they just don't make the news because South Korea are on 'our side'.

So do many things that go on in other allied nations too. We know to sometimes to mind our own business in most cases unless it comes to genocide, etc. As we see again, and have to remember you can't bring our US type of democracy to places places like Iraq or A'stan.

Understand … I'm Not pointing fingers at anyone. However the point I'm making … the situation I see with most/many idealists, intellectuals, academics, SJW, etc., etc. There is always something else to do, as much does not meet their standards or approval, etc., etc.

They have to be careful to not step on Unicorn 💩 or trip over bags of 🍭🍭🍭 in their reality. Vs. the realists that live in the sometimes cold, dark, grey reality of the planet we live on. 🌎

Reunification is no euphemism – it is the official name for the event here. Hence I use it.

I know it's the official name. It's also blatant propaganda. That's all I was addressing.

My opinion – for what's it's worth – is that Vietnam is better off now that it would be if the other side had won.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. More than anything else, the horribly corrupt South Vietnamese government guaranteed that the war could not be "won" by outside intervention. If the Saigon government had been a shining beacon of democracy, the South Vietnamese people may have been more willing to support it and throw out the Communists.

The truth of the matter about Vietnam being better off now as a result of the fall of the south can never be known. The only example we have is the difference between North and South Korea. In the North people are all happy under penalty of death.

Reminds me of the old joke:

Castro is driving in the country and sees a peasant working the field. Castro stops and asks "How is everything going"? The peasant says "Can't complain". Castro's response "Damn right you can't".

😆

North Korea is probably the worst regime currently on the planet for all manner of reasons. Just appalling. Some ME absolute monarchies run a close second but they are 'on our side' so they get treated more leniently.

People look at South Korea, which is not too bad in most areas, and assume it was ever thus. And that just ain't the truth.

South Korea was a fascist dictatorship for 3? decades until 1987.

Like I say – not too bad now. BUT – Freedom of the press is limited. [A Japanese journalist was held without trial for over a year for publishing true facts about the president (Park Geun Hye). [SK has harsh anti-defamation laws which are abused by the powerful] Right to protest and assemble is often curtailed by heavy handed riot cops. There is no trial by jury, so the entire legal system is open to corruption. And this is NOW!

See the films '1987' and 'The Man Standing Next' [about the KCIA] for a primer on just how bad South Korea WAS.

But the Hanoi regime ain't snow white neither. But I live here so can't say too much.

How do you say "Damn right you can't" in Vietnamese?

Col Durnford –

South Korea was a fascist dictatorship for 3? decades until 1987.

As I have said before serving there 22 months, '84-'85 I never saw this … But I spent most of my time in a forward deployed camp just South of the DMZ. Save for the 2 tours ON the DMZ.

We spent a lot of time on field ops, FTXs, etc. No one there ever mentioned the ROK was a fascist dictatorship. We had ROK soldiers attached to all our units there. My ROK[KATUSA]* troopers, Sgt Pak & Cpl Ha never mentioned this to me or anyone else AFAIK.

Of course I followed the lawful/legal orders I was given by my superiors. Not the ROK Gov't … just say'n …

Footnote: * KATUSA – Korean Augmentation To the US Army …

"Chung Jin!" ✊

I hope both Pak & Ha are doing well also ! 👍👍

It was pretty bad in 84-85 I gather but as a soldier serving mostly on the DMZ you would not see much of anything. You'd be busy doing your job and when off duty they don't encourage US military personnel to immerse themselves in local politics!

As a corollary, many Germans serving in WW2 never saw any atrocities either…

And, many US troops serving in Vietnam did so honorably. I'd say probably the vast majority did. If they did kill civilians it was almost always unavoidable. But there were massacres, murders etc. in addition to a whole host of war crimes emanating from the very top down. Nick Turse's Kill Anything That Moves is an excellent analysis and based on sound research. You can find it as an audio book on youtube.

It's well established that Korea was at best authoritarian, right wing and undemocratic in the 60s-80s. They and the US sweep that under the rug now, naturally.

And it's not so bad now, in the scheme of things.

And Vietnam is authoritative, left wing, and undemocratic with no expectation to change any time in the foreseeable future.

Absolutely. No question about that.

Changes have been happening, but there are powerful forces that oppose change, so it's not going to happen overnight.

Nowhere do I make the claim that Vietnam is a paradise and without it's faults. Far from it.

My point, apologies for labouring it, is that had the GVN won, or at least prevailed in a similar way to South Korea, there is no reason to believe Vietnam would be better today. I think rather worse but no one can prove a 'what if'.

when off duty they don't encourage US military personnel to immerse themselves in local politics!

Never came up or crossed our minds. We just did our duty near and on the DMZ.

And actually US politics almost never came up either. It was like we were on another planet. What happened back "home" in the big picture mattered little.

And, many US troops serving in Vietnam did so honorably. I'd say probably the vast majority did. If they did kill civilians it was almost always unavoidable.

I agree totally and know this for a fact.

But there were massacres, murders etc. in addition to a whole host of war crimes emanating from the very top down.

I don't doubt that either but the numbers were small …Compared to the rest of the US Forces in country.

Korea was at best authoritarian, right wing and undemocratic in the 60s-80s. They and the US sweep that under the rug now, naturally.

Again had never heard or knew any of that. But again it would matter little where we were.

And it's not so bad now, in the scheme of things.

Indeed … I'd hope so … I left the ROK in '85. That gave them a lot of time to clean up their act. If it was as bad as you said.

And, as I said before the only similar situation is North and South Korea. In a real stretch you could compare East and West Germany. No communist country has ever gotten a better standard of freedom as long as they cling to totalitarian communism.

In my opinion too many of us have narrow minded views of the communism/capitalism thing based on 1950s era propaganda.

Neither system is perfect – we need a new paradigm if we are to progress and even survive.

Both systems can be authoritarian and totalitarian. Chile under Pinochet? Brazil in the 70s[?] and Korea in the 1960s-80s as we have discussed.

Many communist systems cannot be compared with capitalist systems as they did not start from the same level. Many communist countries had been colonies with resources looted and people oppressed and under-educated for decades or longer.

The USSR had to defeat fascism on its own soil with some help from the US/UK but the damage to the USSR infrastructure and human capital was massive. We know this, surely?

Other communist regimes suffered economic warfare, terrorist attacks sponsored by the US and other hardships the rich capitalist countries did not have to contend with.

So – let me be clear – I want VN and other communist/socialist states to be less authoritarian. And I think there will be progress albeit slowly and with setbacks.

But I want a lot of capitalist countries to also be less authoritarian and respect human rights more both at home and abroad.

For all my faults, I strive not be a hypocrite at least.

You seem to be much more forgiving of the crimes committed by the Hanoi regime than many I've met who fled that country. I appreciate that you are living there and seeing the country firsthand and I'm not, but that doesn't change what the Communists did to their defeated brethren after 1975.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. Good day, sir.

Not at all. I hold all criminal regimes to equal standards. Hanoi is far from perfect and I never have pretended they were.

So many people – Americans especially I'm sorry to say – are so steeped in the propaganda from the 1950s and blinded by the broken US 2 party system [I see one party in 2 flavours with almost no discernible difference in policies] that they are forgiving or ignorant of US crimes and the crimes of US proxies/vassals/allies. They see anything socialist as bad and anything communist as pure evil. Meanwhile if it's capitalist it must be ok….

Wars are always nasty and civil wars among the nastiest. How were ex-soldiers from the confederacy treated post the ACW?

Two wrongs never do make a right, but try to imagine how the GVN would have behaved were the shoe on the other foot? They were already committing quite appalling human rights violations on VC prisoners and suspects so an amnesty and reconciliation seems to me unlikely.

A lot of the abuse heaped upon former GVN soldiers and officials is akin to the revenge taken on Nazi Collaborators in France post liberation. Do we judge the resistance fighters harshly for taking revenge on the thugs and criminals who had aided the Nazi occupiers? Maybe we should but I can imagine doing much the same in a similar situation. Quite a lot of innocent people got caught up in these roundups including people who had been members of secret resistance cells. Secret Army [Excellent TV series] has an episode on this.

Anyway, we can disagree civilly at least.

I understand. You have my sympathy.

Skarper,
Why is the ruling class in the north so afraid of their own people? link

Why is it that historically it appears that the more "socialist" a country is the more restrictions of speech and free choice are placed on their individual rights?

Why is it that refugees mostly flee from a mostly Socialist country to less Socialist countries?

I know not everyone wants to leave VN but what is it that motivates some people to leave VN?

Wolfhag

Some good points …

I really don't want to get into this here – or anywhere really for that matter. But I'll do my best to clarify some points. I'll repeat – let's not get into an argument that will bore the others.

There ARE severe restrictions on freedom of expression here – no doubt. But there are other capitalist countries with the same problems, often worse.

Some people do still want to emigrate – but that is true of many countries even capitalist ones.

My point, in so far as I have one is:-

Socialist/communist countries are not as bad as they are painted in the US media/politics.

And capitalism is nowhere near as good as most people seem to think it is.

NEVER do I claim I live in a socialist paradise. Far from it.

But civil liberties and freedom of the press, freedom of expression and under threat in the US, UK and other 'free countries' too.

The #1 reason people leave Vietnam for the West/Australia is money. That's not a bad reason, but people with talent and ability can become far richer in countries that are already rich than they ever could at home. Elementary surely and this is mostly why people are trying to get to richer countries from capitalist countries too.

Some people want to leave due to religious persecution. Many want to reunite with people who left in the 70s – 80s [although a great many seem to be coming back of late].

People can think what they want and say what the want to a surprising degree here. But publish a blog about it? Organise a demonstration or meeting? They will come down on you hard with fines, prison and the whole apparatus of the state. So we are not free.

I have one friend who got into some bother for making an art video. The authorities did not like the imagery. He was questioned about it a few times and it must have been intimidating. They were mainly concerned about 'foreign' entities that might have put him up to it. This sounds crazy to some, but the US has got form in this arena.

Few know about the terrorist camps in Thailand that send people into Vietnam to murder border police and minor officials. It has been a while since they did anything but my understanding is they are still there. Who are these loonies you may ask?

They are the children of the GVN officers and officials, funded by the crazier elements of the Vietnamese community in the US and the CIA [allegedly]. They are trained, armed and want to 'liberate' Vietnam. But they are only a few hundred at most and it's a long walk from Thailand so mostly they just get drunk and talk big.

So – while the Government in Vietnam is hyper vigilant about threats to its power, that is not unique to socialism and in this case not without cause.

I hope I will live in Vietnam long enough to see meaningful change for the better. We've had glimmers of hope but there are powerful people who like it how it is – same everywhere in fact.

I don't want the system to collapse like happened in the USSR and crooks to be allowed free rein. There is not much to steal here though and VN is going to be the new cheap labour centre to manufacture goods at the expense of China.

The US cares not one jot about human rights – it's just for speechifying and never the driver of policy. I think we here all know this much at least.

I'm not sure that any country's government is really that keen on things like civil liberties/human rights. Here in the UK the government is embarking on a number of measures to suppress voting, criminalise protest and undermine the courts.

My point exactly, uglyfatbloke. I may need you to sue you btw for breach of copyright….

Just a thought … how can in any way, shape or form can one compare Vietnam currently to the USA today ?

Just say'n …

Actually, it's very easy once you clear everything with the Công an Nhân dân Việt Nam first.

I will add a "just say'n…" as well.

Thus my post offering my sympathy above.

It seems like you have misunderstood me – or I have completely missed what you are trying to say.

I don't think it matters much though.

On your final thought, we are in complete agreement.

Actually, it's very easy once you clear everything with the Công an Nhân dân Việt Nam first.

Indeed …

Vietnam has changed a lot since the (blessed) fall of the USSR. While still no democracy with respect for human rights, it is much improved from the pre-1990 version. At the very least, they no longer shoot you for trying to leave.

Ironically, one of the greatest assets of modern Vietnam are the folk who fled after the Communist victory, and their descendants. After the country opened up and allowed family reconciliations after 1990, overseas Vietnamese became an invaluable source of capital and expertise. The politics still suck, but for many millions who just keep their heads down and want a better future for themselves and their children, things are much improved.

And with a median age of 30 years, the War is a one-off school trip to a museum for most Vietnamese alive today.

My Vietnamese wife's father was a veteran. Born in the North, he was conscripted and forced to fight in both the NVA and VC (not all were South Vietnamese, though that is the official story). He was later wounded in the campaign to remove Pol Pot from Cambodia.

He died 6 years ago from a rare neck cancer that may or may not have been related to exposure to agent orange. We have no idea of any possible generational effects on our own family.

I've said this on other threads before … but the irony is obvious, IMO.

The cane, walker and crutches I got from the VA were all made in Vietnam. I'm sure the Vietnam Vets going to the VA for treatment for their injuries incurred during that war, or otherwise, see the irony of it …

I wonder if VN would be doing if they lost the war to the US.

Wolfhag

LOL !!!! 😄😆🤣

I could never tell my Mom that I drove a Japanese SUV for 11 years (long story centred around Hong Kong 1941). Much easier when I got a Grand Cherokee (Oh, but made in Austria, by an Italian owned firm). Thank goodness my Kitchen, my power tool box etc is only 95% German.

If Vietnam had "lost" the war, the US would have poured in masses of aid for an economic boom. In no time they would have been manufacturing canes, walkers and crutches and exporting them worldwide. Plus ca change etc…….

The war would have dragged on. There is no reason to assume an economic miracle had the US somehow propped up the GVN into the 1980s. The ROK took a LOOOOOOOOONG time to become democratic and economically stable let along successful. I have covered this at length before Deadhead and don't want to rehash it. I'm a patient man but not a glutton for punishment.

I think you can find what I posted if you search. Or don't if you're happy with the opinion expressed above.

No, I do recall your previous comment about ROK and I am sure, being on the spot, you can predict what would have happened had the war ended differently. I suspect any aid would have been misappropriated by the ruling faction anyway.

I guess I was just thinking of the Marshall Plan and how the losers of WWII did quite well economically in the end.

Yes, if you looked at Germany & Japan a decade or two after the war. It looked like they won …