Help support TMP


"What war between Australia and China could look like if" Topic


63 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please do not post offers to buy and sell on the main forum.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Ultramodern Warfare (2014-present) Message Board


Areas of Interest

Modern

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Recent Link


Top-Rated Ruleset

FUBAR


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 


Featured Workbench Article

Three Adventurers from Hasslefree

Paul Baker of Brush Strokes tackles three female adventurers from Hasslefree.


3,033 hits since 28 Apr 2021
©1994-2026 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

arealdeadone13 May 2021 4:06 p.m. PST

If you knew more about the capabilities of armour you wouldn't be insinuating I'm advocating a massed tank assault.

Well done on baseless assumptions. I am well aware of the capabilities of armour outside of tank battles (in fact a relatively uncommon role).


My question is why does the Australian Army need to massively expand tank forces especially when we have serious gaps in both sea coverage and air defence?

You can have Chinese nuclear submarines launch cruise or ballistic missiles from eastern or south western seaboards without a problem. This is where all the cities are.

There's no OTH radar coverage on either of those coasts (Jindalee points northward – it was built with Indonesia in mind). There are no fighter squadrons based in west and no surface-to-air defences on either of those coasts (well no surface to air defences anywhere).

And note the existing M1 Abrams are relatively new.

Of course it wouldn't be me making the decision- that's just another emotive red-herring statement- but I know what the provisions are (or were, now).

In certain situations the ADF may be employed against Australians and could include air, naval or armoured units- if the situation was seen by the government and governor-general as warranting that use of force. The situations would have to be extreme but the provisions are there in the constitution.

Oh yes I am well aware. And not just the constitution but the Defence Act.

It's scary how much flexibility the Commonwealth has in terms of being able to act against its citizens (and especially worrying when Australia doesn't have a bill of rights or indeed anything that guarantees individual rights).

Indeed the Australian military has already been used strangely in strictly civilian matters:

1. Intervention to stop sexual abuse and alcoholism in indigenous communities.

2. Aerial reconnaissance over a disputed dam in Tasmania in 1983.

3. Provision of aerial transport to break a pilot's strikes in 1971 and 1989.

4. Quarantine enforcement during COVID.

5. Use of military to load ships during a waterfront dispute in 1950s (basically troops used as strike breakers)

"Luckily" for Australia, supposedly pro-worker PM Bob Hawke destroyed the union movement in the 1980s and Australians have happily accepted the new neo-liberal order whereby their salaries and living conditions stay stagnant or deteriorate so no need to use military as strike breakers anymore.

The ADF can't be called out to deal with police matters (ie the rioting to which you allude), as you probably well know.

As far as I am aware, the only exemption was for intervening against riots due to industrial disputes (but nothing to stop using military as strike breakers as previously mentioned) (sec 51 of Defence Act).

Other than that the constitution's section 119 is interpreted as meaning the Commonwealth can deploy the army to protect itself :

"The Commonwealth shall protect every State against invasion and, on the application of the Executive Government of the State, against domestic violence"


Definition of violence is never ever defined.

And with Australia has been working hard on rolling back "rights" and becoming more authoritarian ( link ), the Constitution's blank check on using the military against the population is a scary concept (and one that I know is supported by some of the more fringe elements of the right who not only form a chunk of current government's supporters but who would love nothing more than to deploy tanks against BLM or women's rights or environmental protestors).

Tango0123 May 2021 8:15 p.m. PST

China's Warns Australia That It Will Be 'Hit First' If It Meddles In Chinese Conflicts


link


Also…

Australian writer detained in China on espionage charges to face trial

link


Armand

SBminisguy24 May 2021 9:38 a.m. PST

Here's something to think on. China has been throwing cash at pacific nations to get them onto Belt and Road. Belt and Road also includes (not shown on this map) New Zealand, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Brunei.

Samoa had joined Belt and Road, but then the Trump admin convinced them to drop a Chinese port project – not sure if that will remain the case given the new POTUS* in the White House. Palau and other nations are under heavy pressure to join.

Flags = The country had joined Belt & Road
Anchors = Chinese "investment" in ports and airfields

SBminisguy24 May 2021 9:43 a.m. PST

It wouldn't be hard for China to create instant military bases at any of these sites, using containerized systems – from barracks and workshops to missile systems, like the YJ-18C, which is China's version of the Russian "Club-K" containerized cruise missile system.

SBminisguy24 May 2021 9:45 a.m. PST

…and nothing stopping China from leaving a few containers of these weapons at any port, especially those they already control or have influence in…Panama, Piraeus (Greece), Cuba, Venezuela, etc.

Tango0124 May 2021 2:13 p.m. PST

Glup!!!!


Armand

arealdeadone24 May 2021 4:14 p.m. PST

Yep Chinese are definitely clever people. We yang guizi (western devils) underestimated them badly. We thought it was a return to the days of old when our companies effectively dominated China and they were forced to take our opium and colonial outposts. We wanted them to be a cheap supply of near slave labour to fuel corporate profits and a near rnfless supply of expendable soldiers to fight the Soviets.

Now we reap what we sowed.

Heedless Horseman24 May 2021 8:57 p.m. PST

NO nation should ever think that it's Military would NEVER need to be used against it's own people.To do so completely ignores most history. It might be abhorrent and give 'propaganda coups'… but… society is becoming increasingly unstable.

Armour? Well old Humber 'Pigs' came in useful in N Ireland and I recall seeing an M113 busting through a wall in a US cult siege.
An MBT might seem like colossal 'overkill', but it does not 'have' to fire main gun… and could cope with barricades that might stop lighter APCs. Armoured dozers could do the job… but why pay for dozers when an MBT might be available for other threats? A tank gun might be relatively short range, but could do serious mess to most Naval or 'civilian'vessels close inshore.And no terrorists or infiltrators would want to be on the wrong end of an MBT gun!

I suspect that actually 'crewing' MBT units may be a problem…but, MUCH better to have the kit available, than not.

If Oz wants more MBTs… go get em. Wish we would in UK! Lol.

Heedless Horseman24 May 2021 9:58 p.m. PST

As to Aussie people? UK has MUCH more gratitude to Australia and New Zealand than they might think.
(Apart from Mel Gibson and 'Neighbours'! lol.)
Always the exception, tho !
Early 80's, UK, sitting in a 'bar' with an Aussie 'tourist' on same table. He decided to take photos of 'the 'performer'. Even as a drunk teen, I had enough sense to EVAC… and watch the THREE police cars/vans tearing past, lights and sirens… LOL!!!
Chinese, Take Note…!!!

SBminisguy25 May 2021 8:52 a.m. PST

If Oz wants more MBTs… go get em.

They may also want to consider their own Marine Expeditionary Force in case they need to try and take and deny island bases to China should push come to shive.

backstab26 May 2021 1:24 a.m. PST

Headless horseman, Crewing our tanks was never a problem, just the amount we are using. Currently we had enough to fully man and equip 3 Squadrons which left no repair pool … The COs of the ACRs would flog the living Christ out of their Tanks but would not rotate them for heavy grade repair so the maintenance burden would just keep raising until the tanks were completely stuffed .. the extra tanks we are buying will form that needed repair pool to keep the 3 squadrons running

arealdeadone26 May 2021 3:30 p.m. PST

Early 80's, UK, sitting in a 'bar' with an Aussie 'tourist' on same table. He decided to take photos of 'the 'performer'. Even as a drunk teen, I had enough sense to EVAC… and watch the THREE police cars/vans tearing past, lights and sirens… LOL!!!
Chinese, Take Note…!!!


I never understand the "Aussies are tough brawlers" mythology and I have spent a lot of time in pubs here in Australia.

I used to be an alcoholic and drank at several local pubs, two of which were regarded as shady and dangerous (one had an awesome metal/rock scene – still miss that place).

There was the occasional scuffle but nothing major. Nothing ever like what people talk about. Also odd scuffle at the taxis but again it was more like a couple of primary school boys and usually over in less than a minute. It was generally all more bark than bite.

I have met scary Australians though. These guys were generally jacked up on speed or ice (meth) and were totally on edge. Though they mainly took it out on their girlfriends…

Luckily these guys didn't come to the pubs I drank at but I used to meet them at a friend's house who happened to be a drug dealer (drugs weren't my thing though – only booze, drugs did nothing for me – though I could understand the appeal of speed but only did it once).

Whenever any of these guys visited, the room went quiet and we all nod and agreed with whatever the jacked up psycho of the moment was saying even if it was totally incoherent.

Pages: 1 2 

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.