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"Swabian Banners" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

Stalkey and Co03 Apr 2021 8:52 a.m. PST

Anyone have some good suggestions for Swabian banners from the time of the battle of Civitate?

I realize we may not have exact info, but some educated guesses would be fine, also!

Personal logo timurilank Supporting Member of TMP03 Apr 2021 9:52 a.m. PST

Armorial designs of the Duchy of Swabia will be of little help as these are later (12th c.).
Ottonian banners were rectangular with two or three tails.
Coins of the period have proven a useful resource as these depict saints, crosses or Latin inscription.

The colours of yellow with red or black do appear in later Swabian heraldry.

Coins
link

LorenzoMele03 Apr 2021 10:58 a.m. PST

Qr miniatures sell a flag sheet for their 15mm x-xi c. german range.
No idea from which source they got it.
Considering swabian fought for the pope it would not be unlikely a banner with a cross or religious motif.
The papal banner used by normans at hastings can be a good inspiration.
Rgds
Lorenzo

Stalkey and Co03 Apr 2021 5:31 p.m. PST

Timurilank

do you have any good images of ottonian banners?

Wouldn't Civitate be a bit more carolingian in style?
just a thought.

Personal logo timurilank Supporting Member of TMP03 Apr 2021 10:28 p.m. PST

The link will take you to Kingdom of France.
The rendition of Charlemagne's flag will give you an idea of the shape suggested.
link

Swampster04 Apr 2021 2:43 a.m. PST

"Wouldn't Civitate be a bit more carolingian in style?"

Civitate is much later than the Carolingians it even post-dates the Ottonian dynasty.

Banners in France, Italy and Germany in the 11th and 12th centuries tend to look pretty similar and are much like the Norman flags that various people sell. Some have crosses and I agree with Lorenzo that this would be likely for a contingent fighting for the Pope.

I have just come across illustrations from a medieval catalogue of the relics of Bamberg cathedral. This includes the banner of the canonised Emperor Henry II (last of the Ottonians, dying in 1024). link It hangs vertically as would be typical of an ecclesiastical gonfalon, but it may have been flown horizontally when used in battle. The lettering wouldn't necessarily rule this out, as some later flags even had heraldry which was rotated 90 degrees when carried in battle.

Druzhina04 Apr 2021 5:13 a.m. PST
Stalkey and Co04 Apr 2021 6:16 a.m. PST

Guys, thanks so much! Lots of great ideas and I'm sure something will work.

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Apr 2021 11:06 a.m. PST

Not sure wether the Swabian contingent was send by the contemporary duke of Schwaben, but Otto would be from the family of Schweinfurt, who have left their family arms to the modern city. White Eagle on Blue.
link

This, however, would probably be only used for his family and close retainers if he used this arms at all.

On another note (actually, an internet search), Otto seems to have used three black lions on yellow:
link
Note the white eagle on blue in use by his sister.

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