"New edition coming? Empire 7?" Topic

Mike Petro
I agree completely. Point out things you find negative. However, this was about edition 7, and seeing as how not one person alive has seen 7 yet save the author, it's kind of hard to point out the negative things about it. Lol. 😁

JSLannes that comment alone almost makes me want to go join FB. Not kidding, I would feel like the girl in No Rain video

Almost……but not quite.

14Bore
I take it that's a good thing? Lol

Guys, as the guilty party for starting a thread that has stirred such controversy I thought I'd explain that I posted on the Empire Board because, rather obviously, the question was directed toward Empire insiders who might be able to shed more light.

I cross-posted to the Napoleonic Discussion Board because I felt the prospect of a new edition of Empire was very newsworthy. Despite the naysayers I still feel that Empire has been a very formative influence on Napoleonic wargaming with miniatures over the past 30+ years. It certainly has been for me.

It's a shame that people feel the need to strike out in attack, damning a potential set of new rules they've never even seen but the internet is what it is and the rest of us just have to keep going – "don't let the bastards grind you down" as my Dad used to tell me.

To the Empire VII (or whatever it will be called) developers I urge press on with all dispatch men and damn the torpedoes.

Nick

You're not guilty of anything- the behavior you noticed is endemic on this board. It's unfortunate, but had you not posted it here, you would have gotten fewer eyes. The Empire board is unfortunately moribund.

JSLannes yes, you see being a Empire player here isn't the most popular game, been playing Empire 3 since1981.

Gentlemen

I have gotten a massive amount of membership requests recently to the Empire FB group. I can only assume a lot of them are coming from here. I do not accept all requests as many requests are obviously trolls or hackers. So, if anyone missed my earlier post, please email me and tell me why you wish to join, I will then know it's legitimate and I will get you right in!
My email is: jshelton22@att.net.

My intention is not to be an asshole, but rather to try and protect the integrity of the group and not have it devolve into chaos.

There is a ton of great information and discussion on Empire that goes on, it is well worth stopping in

Thanks JSLannes22, very much appreciated. It seems the Empire community is indeed alive and well and with exciting plans working to fruition. I welcome any and all innovation in wargaming.

It would be nice if Scotty Bowden would reply to this thread. He's posted on here from time to time.

Definitely interested, still thinking of joining, and only for this as survived this long in life this long.

Scott is active on the FaceBook Group referenced above. He gives quite a lot of detail. Think he prefers to operate without trolls. It seems Empire 7 really is a thing and the design and development is well progressed. User community playtests are in the planning stage.

That's great news; those of us who are not on Facebook greatly appreciate your generosity in sharing the news. Any idea who will be publishing it?

I played Empire 4 and 5 and didn't rebase a figure, the rules where neither ponderous or inaccurate after years of playing through huge Napoleonic battles like Bautzen to refighting Waterloo campaign, 1813, 1812 and 1806,and my favourite after Napoleons victory at Waterloo, they reflect the command control variables and my club and I played them constantly. We have talked about playing for years but our club broke up sometime ago, but we are still talking about revisiting as I think they are neither complicated or inaccurate great set of rules. Ive read the comments and I suspect its a combination of players moving to smaller games and not the ability to play games that empire do best and that's in the grand size – I look forward to the new edition my only hope is that figure removal is not included, but for a quality set of rules I'll live with it – and guys lighten up play them or not who cares, go play the bang your dead rules for a 30 min game we all like different rules live and let live

Nine pound round, Scott says he'll publish it himself.

Thanks- looking forward to seeing it.

I suspect this new edition will not see the light of day until 2022, maybe 2023. I will buy a copy, if only that it might coincide with my 50th anniversary of miniature gaming.
Thanks for the heads-up, Nick.
Kind regards
Allan

News from Scott Bowden at the Facebook Empire group…

First, great news to share. An agreement in principle has been reached with Kip Trexel who will be leading the Empire Campaign System redesign efforts. There are a lot of tremendous advances in this model that will be part of the E7 package, and I am thrilled about what will certainly be a spectacular addition to your hobby enjoyment.

Second, I have recently been putting finishing touches on the 1:20 scale level rules for those who wish to enjoy the hobby using this representation. Therefore, the different scales currently in place are:
1:120
1:60 (current EMPIRE scale)
1:30
1:20
and
1:10
Also, due to rules flexibility in representing troops at different scales, discussion and examples of "doubling up" the castings at different scales will be illustrated (thanks to David Maxwell in Oz for this inspiration).
Also, the ground scales and time scales for each level will be in place as well so that the rules' accurate frontages—-and much, much more—-can be part of the select figure scale.

Hello all

Thought I'd stop by again to reiterate some info regarding the FB group

I contacted Scott a few years back, and told him I wanted to start an Empire group page. But as Empire is his baby, I wanted his blessing. He agreed to it and up it went. I found this forum way too negative and counterproductive. So, it is not Scott who wishes to operate without trolls, but myself.

I encourage discussion. The fact that one may not agree with some aspects of the rules, is a very logical and realistic fact. THAT is not being a troll. Bashing the rules for personal reasons, or because you don't play them, or any other agenda, is troll like activity and in no way contributes to the enjoyment that others get from the rules

The whole point of the group is to present disagreements, and discuss solutions. Now, as it so happens, now we have learned that an incredibly comprehensive, and thoroughly researched new edition, INCLUDING an upgraded campaign system is soon to come. We have been blessed by Scott stopping in and giving us updates and even giving input on other discussions

It is simply a better format, from the ease with picture sharing, to real time discussions

So, I welcome ALL who wish to partake in the above mentioned aspects of the group. I do, however, ask the following: I require an EMAIL, asking for admittance. This is so you can include your exposure to Empire and a simple statement as to why you wish to join. It isn't a scientific formula to keeping trolls out, it's easy to lie lol. However, it is at least something as a person must take the time to compose an email, which shows, at least, an interest in what we are doing

I have dozens of pending requests, however, most of these I KNOW are trolls and hackers. I think I have responded to every member of this group who have emailed me. I am human, and maybe I have missed one or two

So, if you have emailed me and I haven't responded, I apologize, please try again. For any others wishing to join, my email again, is

Jshelton22@att.net

All are welcome who wish to contribute in a positive way! I look forward to hearing from you!

PS. I do not know the identity of the pseudonyms of the members of this page, so if you email, you do not have to tell me your TMP screen name, but letting me know you are an active member here will definitely tell me that you are serious and not a hacker. 😃

JSLannes22 –

Just sent a join request. Keen to see what Scott has in mind for a new edition.

Cheers!

Any news or updates on this?

I would await a multi Divisional (rather than multi Corps) verson of Empire as I don't have the figures or space for the latter. Hope it would have the option of the same figure scale 1:60.
Thanks

I would probably pick up empire 7 if it came out, but more from an interest in the game system changes. I doubt i could find any players willing to put the effort in learning the rules and while i used to play empire 3 back in the 1990's, i do not know the rule sufficiently to teach anyone. I still use my empire 3 rules as a reference, they were rather detailed.

But as for news, i also heard about empire 7 coming out earlier this year, but have not seen anything tangible yet. The wiki pages has not been updated for a while. link

As an active member of the facebook page I am very keen to see this new project.
I have been playing Empire V for decades, with multiple groups locally with a couple of home mods in 6mm, 15mm and 28mm using 1:30 and 1:60 ratios from 4 Corps a side to just a division versus a division and everything in between. Very easily and rarely needing to check a chart!
It all comes down to familiarity. The more you use it the more you know it.

Maybe after reading pfmodel's post I wonder if an Empire Lite version would be of interest especially for beginnings? Or just go back to Empire3?

I am no expert on Empire in any version, though I used to be a member of the Yahoo group, currently own a copy of Empire 5 and owned a copy of Empire 3 back in the 1980's.
I would suggest to anyone involved in drafting an updated version that they review very critically the figure removal mechanism. Having a 1:60 ratio creates major problems in representing formations with historical unit strengths. For example, a post-1808 French infantry battalion might have a strength of 500 all ranks, so eight or nine figures. The initial challenge is therefore to represent the six sub-units. Regardless of how you fudge the strength distribution across the sub-units, this falls apart when you need to remove a figure casualty. Which sub-unit do you take it from? I wonder whether the rules writers are considering a roster system combined with a whole unit effectiveness number. Does anyone know if this is being considered?

that they review very critically the figure removal mechanism. Having a 1:60 ratio creates major problems in representing formations with historical unit strengths.

More fundamentally, I'd think that they should review whether it's really practical to use individual battalions as the basic units, in a game where you're playing an army commander, issuing orders to multiple corps.

When I think back on my Empire games, it was often the case that I'd come over to my friend's house on a Friday evening, and we'd spend the night setting up the table and figures for Saturday's game. It took hours. Then on Saturday everybody would gather and we'd play a few turns, rarely managing anything like a conclusive outcome — probably because there were well over a hundred little units on the table — and then we'd spend a couple of hours to clean it all up and pack it away again.

That was 30+ years ago. I don't know anybody anymore who has that kind of time or patience.

That's not "Empire's" unique problem; it was typical of all the games of that era. But these days I'm happy with just a dozen or so units; keeping track of anything more than that, feels like a chore and takes too long.

Did you attack one battalion at a time? Maybe commit up to a brigade at a time. Ready so many historial battle reports when two or three battalions of a regiment plus another battalion of another regiment attacked at the same time leaving its remaining battalion(s) in reserve or follow up in next impulse.

Read not ready

Played quite a bit of Empire back (way back) in the day.

By the time we got to Empire V we never moved or fought with something that represented less than a Brigade.

If I were doing things over myself. I would base whatever I was using as a Brigade and only ever commit by Division or more than one Brigade.

The original idea of pushing Battalions around was the games biggest failing where our original group was concerned.

The only tragedy I get with EIII is when a unit leading off its ME offense falters unexpectedly ending its ME turn. Thems the rules.
Have last two games pick 1 turn ( say turn 5) in beginning and on that turn only every unit gets to make its move/fire no matter what else happens.

@Garth in the Park
Ditto what you said.
Our UK group played Newbury Rules Napoleonics (all four editions) in the 70s and 80s and became really proficient. Even so, larger 15mm games on our 15' x 6' table rarely got through more than one complete move per gaming night of three hours, and the games took months to play through. We were happy to do this. We then switched to WRG 1685-1845, which was a bit quicker but not by much.
Needless to say, we are now Age of Eagles fanboys.

Is a updated Campaign system part of the Empire 7 Plan. That would be great.

That was 30+ years ago. I don't know anybody anymore who has that kind of time or patience.

I cant even get through Osprey's Lions Rampant for lack of time and patience.

Rosenberg, here is an excerpt from a post on the Empire Facebook Group page… From May 18, 2021 posting on a Facebook Empire group. "The E7 project is a massive one that includes, as already mentioned on this forum, five various casting scales which carry with those scales different levels of tactical representations, exhaustive army specs relative to the different levels of representation, a new campaign system being developed by Kip Trexel, and much, much, much more." Scott will keep us posted on the development of Empire 7 as it progresses. Regards, Steve

Great

Any ETA for E7?

Empire 7 is still under development. No release date has been given as far as I know.

i would love to try Empire – the simulation aspect of it appeals to me, i was going to go and get one of the existing editions, but i think i will wait for 7 now

I will pick up a copy when it comes out, but i suspect i will never play a game using them. Even if i am willing to put the effort into learning the rules, i doubt any of my gaming comrades would.