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"The ultimate "what if" wargame?" Topic

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Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP03 Mar 2021 2:58 p.m. PST


Looks like fun….and frightening….

KevinV03 Mar 2021 5:21 p.m. PST

Super cool- and scary.

Thanks for posting.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP03 Mar 2021 6:44 p.m. PST

Thanks. I'm glad to see resources being used for good.

USAFpilot03 Mar 2021 6:49 p.m. PST

The super powers are effectively still under the principle of MAD from the Cold War. Any kinetic attack is deterred by a strong counter attack; a lose lose situation in which the world as we know it is destroyed. The current battle space is comprised of Information Warfare. That is to say propaganda, misinformation, and disinformation as spread by an unwitting main stream media. The players may no longer be traditional nation states but billionaire elites who control the messaging. Pushing different colored blocks on a map is backwards looking.

Consider this quote from Italian Air Marshall Giulio Douhet in 1921.
"Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war, not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after the changes occur."

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP03 Mar 2021 7:24 p.m. PST

The study of military history should be a top priority. Much of what is in past conflicts are applicable to current situations. To ignore the lessons of history is foolhardy.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP03 Mar 2021 7:26 p.m. PST

What I want to know is the game commercially available? The maps and counters look like they have been published. To do a one off printing of maps and counters is unusual and not cheap.

Waco Joe03 Mar 2021 7:43 p.m. PST

The article stated they were using GMT's Next War series. I think with enlarged maps

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP03 Mar 2021 7:48 p.m. PST

I do believe that is Next war Korea by GMT games, it is newly released. The other game is Next war Poland also by GMT but not yet released they are both P500 games. That article is actually talked about on GMT's website.

Umpapa04 Mar 2021 2:29 a.m. PST

Next War Poland was released year ago.

Gwydion04 Mar 2021 4:13 a.m. PST

USAFpilot, good call on the InfoWar element (although it is a much bigger and more nuanced space than old Mainstream Media – Cyberspace is a very easily manipulated theatre and everyone is buying in from social media to infrastructure control software).

It isn't however wise to ignore kinetic action. Concentrating on one mode of conflict, however modern and forward looking risks being outflanked by the person with the pointy stick or lump of plastic explosive.

Serious planning for integrated attack and response is needed. Wargaming for military and govt players is a great way to allow this; as long as we avoid preconceived notions that 'everyone is…' They often turn out not to'…' when the next threat emerges.

We need planning for cyberspace warfare, mainforce battle and COIN. And whatever factor 'X' might be (integration of all forms? State and non-state?) which we aren't currently looking at closely enough!

USAFpilot04 Mar 2021 9:46 a.m. PST

Gwydion, I agree. Your comments are better stated and more comprehensive then mine. Yes, I failed to specifically mention cyber which is becoming more important in its ability to shut down power grids and communication systems, etc. And true that there will always be a need for kinetic operations; so that tactical, operational, and strategic level training is still relevant. To the larger point which I was trying to make, I'm worried about what Sun Tzu said, that "All warfare is based upon deception." I'm thinking at the top level which gets into politics. The manipulation of the truth which has the ability to sway whole populations into falsely thinking who the bad guys are.

Recently the people of the my country have been told that their was an insurrection against the government ; an attempted coup. If so, this was the first insurrection in history in which the insurrectionists didn't fire a single shot. In fact none of them carried any firearms. The only people who actually died on the scene were a few of the "insurrectionists". Then everyone went home. So not much of an insurrection, but it sure was manipulated by the msm which strangely enough ignored the multiple murders and destruction in our cities all summer long. And the msm often falsely reports then makes retractions to these false reports days later. Of course the damage is already done and most people never hear of the retractions just the initial lies. So going back to the topic of Information Warfare, those who control the information, control everything. They are the ones, metaphorically speaking, writing the rules to the war game.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Mar 2021 10:52 a.m. PST

"a violent uprising against an authority or government" (Nothing about guns here)

Totally off topic, but sorry Bud, you can call it whatever you want but it's pretty clear what it was (especially to the wounded cops and the family of the dead Cop).

Let's watch the Blue Fezzy Guys. Please.

USAFpilot04 Mar 2021 11:34 a.m. PST

So the crowd who stormed and took over then vandalized a police station in Seattle we're just peaceful protesters in your world view? Got it.

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP04 Mar 2021 11:51 a.m. PST

I thought this kind of disingenuous discussion was supposed to be limited to specific areas of TMP.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Mar 2021 11:59 a.m. PST

It absolutely is.

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP04 Mar 2021 12:02 p.m. PST

I stand corrected Umpapa, I did not realize these games had been released earlier and are now being done as newer editions.

15mm and 28mm Fanatik04 Mar 2021 1:33 p.m. PST

I think the assumptions and premise behind this wargame are deeply flawed. Russia would unlikely be the main focus compared to the Indo-Pacific region. Russia's force-projection capability is highly dubious and invading Poland is just too risky. Likewise, the Norks have not had the capability to win a conventional war against the south for quite a while now.

This article is nearly 2 years old and here's an earlier post to it (surprisingly not from Tango01):

TMP link

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP04 Mar 2021 1:55 p.m. PST

Fanatik makes good points on the flaws of the premises. Political situations and military capabilities seem to change so rapidly that anticipation of events becomes imperative.

Thresher0105 Mar 2021 8:06 a.m. PST

Easy for the Russkies to take the Baltic States back again though, and even perhaps, Gotland Island. The Swedes recognize and seem to be very concerned about the latter move.

Seize them n less than 48 hours in a lightning strike, like they've done in the past, and there will be little to no response – see the Eastern Euro companies they've seized in the past, as well as Crimea, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Georgia, Afghanistan, etc., etc..

Back up that taking with threats of a nuke response if NATO or others try to retake the territory/territories. No one will dare test Putin over that.

Info wars work, much like the denial of "the little green men" (Russians) being Russian troops when they took over Crimea, or people claiming there was an "armed insurrection" in D.C., when their clearly wasn't.

False propaganda (AKA "fake news") is widespread, and a clear and present danger to democracy, since many people are either confused by it, or are actually so ill-informed as to actually believe it. That IS why so many in China, Russia, Iran, the USA, and other countries now use it.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2021 10:31 a.m. PST

I think I would be concerned if I lived in the Baltic States or Poland today. The last thing Putin wants to see is a resurgent Poland on his doorstep.

Any type of ABM devices set up in Poland could lead to limited military strikes though outright war would be doubtful.

Either way, the GMT games look really cool though too complicated for my tastes.

I might one day, however, create a modern campaign using Team Yaankee rules to game Russia & Belarus vs Poland & NATO. T-90s vs Leopard 2s sounds fun.

USAFpilot05 Mar 2021 12:24 p.m. PST

Speaking of GMT games, I highly recommend "Twilight Struggle". It's themed on the Cold War and is highly addictive to play.

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2021 1:47 p.m. PST

USAFpilot, which militaries are represented in Twilight Struggle, if you don't mind my asking.

15mm and 28mm Fanatik05 Mar 2021 2:06 p.m. PST

I admit there are other "force multiplier" factors involved. Maybe the designers thought the Russians have superior troop quality in training and leadership compared to the ChiComs. Just read something interesting today:


USAFpilot05 Mar 2021 2:12 p.m. PST

It's a two player board/card game. One side is the USA and the other USSR. The board is a map of the world, looks a little like the game Risk but is much more complex. Part of the game is along the concept of area control, which each side spreading their "influence" in various countries. The other part of the game in managing and sequencing your hand of cards. I should say this is not a wargame with moving armies. I have the board game but play daily on my IPad online. What I really enjoy is that with every turn you feel you are making important decisions on where to spread your influence. The game can be a real nail biter right up to the last turn.

15mm and 28mm Fanatik05 Mar 2021 3:09 p.m. PST

TS is a popular and well-known game. I loved these kind of "simple" games since the '80's, when I played games like 'Supremacy: The Game of the Superpowers' and the tongue-in-cheek computer game 'Nuclear War.'

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2021 4:00 p.m. PST

TS regularly end up in "top ten boardgame" lists every year.

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2021 6:09 p.m. PST

Thanks for that feedback. Twilight Struggle definitely looks like it might be worth picking up.

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2021 6:11 p.m. PST

USAF pilot, do you play random opponents when you play online?

USAFpilot06 Mar 2021 9:08 a.m. PST

No, you pick which game you want to play. You can create a game yourself with certain parameters, and other players can join your game or you can select from a list of open games. Everyone has a user name and once you find some of players you like, you can send friend requests to start a game.

For those unfamiliar with Twilight Struggle, the game retails for $50 USD, or $7 USD for the app. The advantage of playing on computer or iPad is it has a tutorial to learn the game. There is a steep learning curve and you will lose the first few games. There is an AI, so you can play against the computer. Only once you have mastered the AI do you want to challenge human players.

The game is not a classic type wargame. There are no military units. There are however tactics and strategy in the placement of laying down "influence" counters and selecting which card to play from your hand. Ever turn your decisions are crucial. History buffs may enjoy the Cold War theme which highlights various major global events between 1945 to 1989.

Covert Walrus03 Jun 2022 3:00 a.m. PST

Thresher noted -

Easy for the Russkies to take the Baltic States back again though, and even perhaps, Gotland Island. The Swedes recognize and seem to be very concerned about the latter move.

Seize them n less than 48 hours in a lightning strike, like they've done in the past, and there will be little to no response – see the Eastern Euro companies they've seized in the past, as well as Crimea, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Georgia, Afghanistan, etc., etc..

How true that the Russians would attempt that has turned out to be.
How very untrue has the ease of that effort become in relaity.

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