"Stars and Bars ! Nothing is easy." Topic

I've noticed that most players who complain about Stars and Bars. Are the very same type of player who complains about Empire V.

Both these rule sets. Take the 3000 foot tall table top general and reduce him to a confused and sometimes totally blind leader. Attempting to control an organized mob on a large battle field. Without direct radio communication or satellite surveillance.

Where your ADC gets lost or killed, you're subordinate ignores your orders or your orders arrive to late to be carried out due to darkness or the opportunity passed.

No in Stars and Bars you haven't the normal guided missiles of Fire and Fury and most other miniature rules.

It's not a six sider game, where all you have to do is roll six with your 37mm cannon to knock out a Tiger Tank!

Roll a bunch of six's to wipe out an entire regt. in one move.

Let me make this clear. I HATE SIX sider dice games. I hate you move, I move games without some form of telescoping time rule and he or she with the better command structure and general office corp gets a better chance of gaining the initiative.

Without any of the afore mentioned FACTS IMHO. Lee would have been ROUTED at Chancellorsville, Antietam and the Peninsula campaign.

I'm getting the idea you are really against d6 games. Is that it?

Only played "Stars and Bars" once at an Origins convention in MD (that dates me).

Didn't do ANYTHING, nor did my flank of the army for 6 hours except long range artillery duel that we eventually stopped to no waste ammo.

Never played them again.

These have been out of print for decades? Who today actually co.plains about them?

Maybe people complain about them because they suck, and realize that all of the extra work doesn't actually produce better results or a better playing experience.

Is this just a rant, or are you trying to make some kind of point?

Oh let him go, 79th. If you can't post long, pointless rants on TMP, where can you?

But Ramrod, where are you finding those people still complaining about Stars and Bars? I hold grudges pretty well myself, but by this time, I hardly even complain about Napoleon's Battles, let alone Empire V.

Our club actually enjoyed Stars and Bars – however we found introducing a new player to them or going a few months without playing them made them too challenging to keep up with.

So for a rule set used frequently I would rate them well- but thats it

I've played many a game of Stars & Bars and enjoyed them… 1st edition.

Tried them a couple of times and just didn't like the feel of them, (and it wasn't the 1000 ft general issue), but the telescoping time, and all the rest of the stuff that seems overdetailed. We went back to RRTF, and occasionally Mr. Lincolns War.

I pretty much hate all commercial rules and after reading just a page ot two begin to meeee-l--tttt ---

So, you've been a member for three weeks and all we know is that you hate certain rules.

This begs the question; what rules do you like? And why do you like them?

BB

Very dated set of rules. Game design has passed them by

Bronco Betty, that's not fair. Ramrod's clearly partial to Stars and Bars, and presumably Empire V, and largely because of the C&C rules. I don't share his preferences, but he's not just being negative.

Welcome to rules debates, Ramrod, where facts are sped through rapidly so we can spend more time attacking one another's taste. You'll fit right in.

I liked the production values of Stars and Bars. My 20 year-old brain couldn't understand the telescoping time principle, though.

But I'm also curious as to why anyone would dig up and desecrate the corpse of Stars and Bars. That's illegal in most parts of the world.

I didn't even know Stars and Bars was still played. It's like running across some tribe in the jungle and discovering they are speaking Aramaic.

I still have my copy of Stars and Bars. I'd be happy to sell it for an absurdly large amount of money.

That was the rules we started with. Man, you had some wild results with those. It lead to generally bloody and quick results but sometimes you got the dice on your side and a single regiment could roll up a flank.

With apologies to Emo Phillips this account seems somewhat apropos…

I met a guy at a gathering and he said, "I'd rather be working on my hobbies." I said, "Me too." I asked, "What is your hobby?" He said, "War gaming." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "Boardgames or video games or miniatures?" He said, "Miniatures." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "Role playing or tabletop?" He said, "Tabletop." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "Fantasy or historical or sci-fi?" He said, "Historical." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "What period – ACW or American Revolution or WW2 or Colonial or Napoleonics or modern…?" He said, "Napoleonics." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "What figure scale 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, 25mm?" He said, "15mm." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "True 15mm or 15/18mm?" He said, "15/18mm." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "What ground scale 1" = 50 meters or 1 cm = 1 meter or something else?" He said, "1" = 50 meters." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "What figure to man ratio – 1:20, 1:40, 1:60, 1:100?" He said, "1:60." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "Based in strips of 1x3 or 2x2?" He said, "1x3." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "What rule set?" He said, "Empire." I said, "Me too!" I asked, "What version of Empire, III or V?" He said, "V." I yelled, "EMPIRE V RUINED EVERYTHING!" and walked away to go join my wife. My wife said, "I saw you talking with Harold, his wife says that he war games, you guys might have something you could play together." I said, "No, we have nothing in common."

Ryan T. That is pretty good.

Ramrod1955
My friends and I played Stars Bars since 1985. Alternating between it an Empire twice a month since that time and only stopped last year because most of group moved to far to play, and we lost our 20x7 foot table.

I think I can speak for the majority of us and say we had consistantly fun games. Some times with several corps on a side, sometimes using smaller scenarios.

A typical Stars n Bars game included 14 Confederate brigades and an equal number of Union Brigades, sometimes more, sometimes less for the Union.

Will everybody enjoy them as we did, of course not, but then I didn't always enjoy rule sets that others rave about.

The old gang broke up but if I could get back into it I would, in a heart beat.

As to not getting into the game, I played, (at a convention), in a very popular rule set at the time and, handling the fifth corps at Antietam, as it was historically it seems, never got into the game. The game master felt sorry for me and let me handle the artillery reserve, so I could at least shoot at something. We always tried to arrange our scenarios to prevent that.

A greater set of civil war rules hasn't been invented yet, in my opinion, humble as it no doubt is.

John

What happened to the OP?

Well it appears you guys aren't or ever have been in the military. Because the US Army considers Stars and Bars a good simulation of civil war grand tactical and tactical battle.

Again if all you want is guided missiles and being able to react to things that you shouldn't be ABLE TOO. Because like Fire and Fury along with Flames of War type rules.

You're not getting the feel of what the commander really has to deal with.

Bronco Betty

I was a member of TMP for a long time when Russ and Connie Dunnaway still had the 15mm old glory line. Before they sold it to 19th Century. Been playing Empire since Empire in the green spiral bound version. Stars and Bars since it first came out. I even played Guards du Corps. A knock off of Empire I. Just haven't been back in years. Came back to get info on something I'm not very up on. The French and Indian war. Started checking on how the gaming world was doing. No wonder most miniature gamers have gotten grey like me.

So I think I have more than enough time in theater to give my opinion on the tactics and SOP of Napoleonic's and the American Civil War.

Bob Roberts

IMHO, I believe it's that players have gotten too use to easy fast rules. They've gotten use auto save features in video games and gotten lazy. I've tried Fire and Fury and found them so simple a twelve year old could play them. If you could get him off Grand theft Auto !

In my time we in the military used Empire and Stars and Bars to train young officers and NCO's. On how NOT to throw troops away.

In real action there is no SAVE GAME. Star and Bars along with Empire V are the two best miniatures rules. If you want a simulation close to how you use your assets.

Not to have a gaming board like Flames of War with wall to wall troops and American Tank Destroyers beaming down from the Starship Enterprise behind you. In an area you just moved through and cleared.

Oddball

One time playing Empire V my Corp sat four over four hours and did NOTHING. Meeting engagement started at 1320. My Corps didn't get on the table till 1630.

We did have five infantry corps on our French side of three tables. My Corps alone had over 540 castings not counting artillery. The two cavalry Corps never showed before nightfall. As one was at the tail of the column and the other was scouting.

Lucius

I didn't know you could make a SET OF RULES illegal. If you can't understand the telescoping time principle. That means YOU DIDN'T READ THE RULES !

Everything in Empire V is explained in detail. Every action of every arm, infantry, Cavalry, Artillery and Engineering !

The telescoping time principle is explained in DETAIL.

So it's very simple. You didn't even try to read the rules.

79thPA

The point is MAYBE you SUCKED at playing them and picked up your toys instead of learning from your mistakes and went home to mommy !

That good enough for you ?

robert piepenbrink

My post was right after the most recent one in December 2020.

Bronco Betty

What rules do I play ? Empire V without skirmish combat. That does bog down playing time. Stars and Bars. But when we play we don't use small arms pass through fire. Even though you could say it would happen if you had troops packed too close.

This will be my last post because I've found most new gamers just want fast simple rules that really don't give you the feel of the era played.

IMHO, if that's all you want ! Just play a board game. Why put in that time in miniatures to shot craps.

Having just played Empire V last weekend, I want to mention something about Scott Bowden's creation. Since the 90's, it's detractors all point to how long it takes to resolve a game. Time consuming and the rules are a burden. I would like to say that the amount of time invested is precisely it's strongest asset.
Most people approach Empire V with a 21st century mindset, where warfare is immediate, decisive, and absolute. They forget they are simulating 19th century warfare, where the complete opposite is true. Unlike the command control we have in maneuver elements today, the Napoleonic forces were launched similar to an arrow shot from a bow. Virtually no control, once the wooden shaft is unleashed from its bowstring. Napoleonic warfare is, in reality, military chess. Like in the actual game, a good player should be able to see his moves 3-4 turns in advance. Plans need time to unfold and develop. So it is with Empire V.
I have always thought that on the tabletop, you break your opponent rather than his troops. His or her morale will control the day. You could achieve this thru various means.

For me, I stay calm and stoic. I found that time is my enemy's biggest opponent. Just like in Napoleonic warfare, you write your orders and watch your horde maneuver forward. This may take more than a couple hours to achieve. It took me two hours to maneuver my forces into a position to attack, like the day at Waterloo. During this time, your opponent has nothing to do but second guess himself. The longer the time, the more they wonder if they made the right moves. One game I believe my opponent changed orders three times in four hours of play. If, in real life, I was down at DIVARTY level during the napoleonic wars and Division sent orders to defend, attack, and defend in that short period of time, then I would have thought they had lost their collective minds. My ammo is deployed around me in a defensive position, then I have to upload it (which takes time), then download it once again, which takes more time!
Once you commit to orders, you better steel your nerves and hold on for the ride. It is the second guessing that I find highlights in these rules, and I just love it!
And that is my two cents worth…

I never said that the TTP wasn't explained. I said that I didn't understand it when I was 20. I've always been a little slow. I'm afraid.

I also didn't say that Stars and Bars should be illegal. I said that corpse desecration was illegal. As we are both well-bred gentlemen, hopefully we can find common ground on at least this point.