"What should Fury have done?" Topic

So in "Fury" when the Shermans are ambushed by the tiger they retreat, fore smoke, then eventually just charge straight ahead.

So given the film's set up for the situations, what *should* they have done?

Called in an air strike.

Not charged across an open field straight at a tank with heavier armour and a bigger gun

Flanked 'em, find some woods to move up on, call in the bam-bam; anything but what they did

Didn't they follow standard Army doctrine on attacking a tank? I remember some Army training film from that period, which explained/demonstrated how to attack a lone tank with a group of Sherman's.

Not looking in too deep in this subject, but maybe the Air corps were tied up somewhere else. The movie didn't appear map reading and calling in air strikes was the norm from a tank crew.

But…it sure makes for great action and relatable on the table top.

P.

Get out of the tank, go get some popcorn at the concession stand -- then come back and enjoy the movie and their own eventual heroic demise with the rest of us.

Yes, an air strike would have been nice. But is it on station ? It may take time to get there ?

Flanked 'em, find some woods to move up on,

That would be my first thought. But do they have the time ? When did they start to take effective fire from the Germans.

calling in air strikes was the norm from a tank crew.

The call may have to have gone to higher HQ. That might take time unless if the CAS is on station.

Like we saw in A Bridge Too Far.

As the Irish Guards advances behind a rolling barrage.

And the German AT Guns in the woods opened up on their column.

When Vandeleur[Michael Caine] called to is Tanks to "Fire the purple !" …

The tanks fired the purple smoke on the woodline where the fire was coming from.

Then the CAS on station attacked where they saw the purple smoke.

I'm pretty sure in Fury there was no such a plan.

If the M4s in Fury's unit were taking fire at a close range from the Germans. They wouldn't have time to try to flank or call in support[if they had any ?].

E.g. In a dismounted in Infantry operation. If ambushed/take fire at 20m or less you charge into the ambush yelling with guns blazing.

If farther than 20m you break contact. With cover from smoke grenades, rolling back using suppressive fires from your organic weapons.

That was doctrine when I was an Inf PL & Co. Cdr, '79-'90.

The tactic of charging into an ambush at 20m or less is a better option. As at that range you will take less losses by charging than trying to break contact.

If your suppressive fires are in a large enough volume along with the shock of charging and yelling … you may take no loses. As you will be on top of the enemy before they can do anything but fallback or die.

That may have been the situation in Fury. But with Tanks …

Have the remaining 75mm Sherman continue firing smoke at the Tiger while the two 76mm Shermans work around the flanks until someone gets a clear shot.

But it really was a ridiculous scene.

I dont believe that charging across open ground at it was ever the best option.

On the edges of the open ground there seemed to be plenty of woods and broken ground. I would've ordered all 3 to fire smoke rounds in front of the Tiger whilst weaving and backing into the woods and then stalk the Tiger using their 3 to 1 numbers. Might still have cost one of their number but perhaps not 2.

Of course we weren't there and it wasn't our lives suddenly on the line, hind sight is much easier.

Oh, stop clutching your pearls!
It's HORRYWOOD! Thus, anything that makes the Movie Star look good is automatically historically accurate!

Pull back beyond the wood line out of the line of fire, then do this…

YouTube link

I would have Rat Patrolled that Tiger with the .50 cal on the turret.

Doctor X for the win! Don't forget to throw one of the grenades to destroy the tank.
Paul

In the absence of air or artillery, fire, and keep firing. Keep battering that Tiger with everything you have. The 75mm tanks might be best firing HE. Eventually you will overwhelm the Tiger.

Lol Doctor X. Best line of the day.

We all hate Hollywood for stuff like this, but if it happens as a fluke die roll on the tabletop, we tell the story over and over to our friends.

No realistic likelihood of a Tank Platoon being able to speak with anyone able to call in an air strike in anything like enough time. As noted the best a unit could do was call the next higher HQ, who would call the next higher HQ, until they got to someone who could direct in air power. I think Combat Command was likely the lowest HQ level for a US Armd Div to be able to contact air, and then not directly speaking to the pilots.

I was reading up on JASCOs in the Pacific recently, trying to work out their radio allocations. The Air Liaison teams had a VRC-1 radio in their Jeep that combined an SCR-193 with an SCR-542, the latter set being intended to link them directly with pilots. However, three of the accounts I read included a recommendation from the AL teams that the SCR-542 be removed; one, because they never used them, and two, because they were always under orders not to use them. All requests for air support were to be submitted to the SAR (I think, Support Air Radio), net, not direct to pilots.

Gary

I dont believe that charging across open ground at it was ever the best option.

Until it is your only option. Terrain & situation dictates almost everything. As I outlined if you are already too close to the enemy. And trying to break contact would cost you more than firings and charging.

Of course we weren't there and it wasn't our lives suddenly on the line, hind sight is much easier.

Yes, from a TC's hatch things look different than otherwise.

Have the remaining 75mm Sherman continue firing smoke at the Tiger while the two 76mm Shermans work around the flanks until someone gets a clear shot.

That may have worked … if the 2 M4s/76 could get to the flank even with the other firing smoke to blind & suppress …

Doc X and ZULUPAUL have the solution that worked in Hollywood for decades !

advocate – I think that is as good a solution as any. Like I said, depending on terrain & situation, you may just open up with everything you have & close the range. Attacking from different direction.

The Tiger's turret, like most other AFVs at that time, could not traverse fast enough to engage the attackers coming in from different directions.

As noted the best a unit could do was call the next higher HQ, who would call the next higher HQ,

Yes, as I said, at that time at Plt or even Co. level at best you'd have to go thru Bn at least, to get CAS.

Unless it was preplanned as in the scenario I outlined in a Bridge Too Far. And even in that case the Rgtl Cdr made the call to fire purple smoke and mark the target for the CAS on station.

On call artillery is the answer. Back off until it is available.

If it is available and you might not have the time to wait …

As I said on another thread here. … support of any type is generally not infinite. You may only have so much FA, CAS, etc. in direct support of your Bn.

But yes if you could call FA or Mortars that could help suppress the enemy while you maneuver to the flank, close the range, etc.

Should have waited for the 'Haunted tank'. Tiger would be toast immediately!

Well yeah !

John Foley had much the same experience as Brad Pitt while leading his troop of Churchills on the outskirts of Brieux in 1944.

The Tiger was up ahead in a sunken lane firing at some other tanks, so he went left flanking and left the other two tanks to cover, trying to catch it in a cross fire.

Sadly, the Tiger had also noticed them and just rolled around their left to engage them while they fired at it as fast as possible. The 75mm shells 'bounced off like peas on a drum' and all the Churchill were destroyed.

Not much you can do when caught with your pants down by a tank whose armour you can't penetrate.

There was shed loads of air and artillery available for the operation, but not immediately available to a tank troop which suddenly found itself in front of a regimental sized counterattack by 12th SS Panzer Division in close terrain.

I think it was SOP for some units to have a few tanks with WP in the chamber. When hit there is a small chance of damage and maybe an engine fire. The crew might also pull back because they are blinded. Fear of the unknown will do that.

Got a quote here from Steven Zaloga's book "Armored Thunderbolt" about WP rounds against the German tanks

"When fired against a German tank, it gave the Sherman a temporary advantage since the panzer would be blinded for a minute or more, (…) In many cases, the acrid white phosphorus smoke would get sucked into the panzer by its ventilating fan and become so unbearable that the panzer crew would abandon the tank. Sherman crews soon learned to fire a "Willy Pete" smoke round at a well-positioned panzer, wait a few seconds for the smoke to take effect, and then machine-gun the tank in hopes of killing the crew."

Willy Pete rounds are one of the most underrated rounds used by the 75 mm Shermans. People focus on AP and HE (and I don't blame 'em) because its the primary rounds to use against armor and soft targets, but Willy Pete can do a whole lot more as well than create a little smoke.

We've refought the Fury-Tiger encounter with one Sherman firing WP and the other three flanking for a shot, I played the Tiger. I lost all four games destroying 1 Sherman in 3 games and 2 in 1 game. Most of the Sherman player were first time players for the game. WP makes a big difference if the Tiger is not supported. We weren't using morale checks either.

Wolfhag

Not much you can do when caught with your pants down by a tank whose armour you can't penetrate.

As we know … That happened often in WWII when it came to Allied AFVs vs. Germany AFVs in battle.

And Wolf +1 …

You are all amateurs!

I have two words to solve this dilemma: Sgt Rock.

‘Nuff said.

Or SGT Fury & his Howling Commandos !!!!

I'm not a WW2 gamer, but I'm enjoying this thread very much.

I was always rooting against the Rat Patrol, they were so annoying.LOL

One solution: Spread the heck out before the smoke clears. As smoke dissapates, all four Shermans fire at the Tiger for two minutes, alternating AP with HE. Let's say at about 300 yards chances of a hit are good since target seemed to be stationary. Each tank puts out a round every six seconds, that's forty rounds with majority striking somewhere on the Tiger, say 30 hits in a minute. In two minutes, 60 hits. The deluge forsakes penetration. Some hits might shatter track, hit the turret ring, gun mantle, whack the optics. Rapid impact of HE rounds might concuss or rattle the crew. Tiger crew might abandon the Panzer. Then smoke the sucker again. A Sherman with the 76mm gun can slide around for a slide shot. wham bam thankyou ma'am. Victory through firepower. Alternate movie solution: lose three tanks with veteran crews. Platoon runs back to base to resupply, and are all available to turn back a small SS battalion on foot.

I think if the M4s are not moving while firing all they could, they may be easier targets. The must move while firing even if just smoke & WP. Until they are literally on top of the Tiger.

Twoheart,
I think any crew would fall back against your barrage. The Sherman 75 HE round was quite powerful. We did have a game where a Sherman 75 hit the Tiger I gun sight on the mantlet and made the gun useless.

An HE round blast with a Super Quick fuse striking at the bottom of the Tiger I mantlet might cave in the hull roof armor of 25mm or the driver/radioman hatches.

Start at 33:05 for a first-person account of a Sherman firing HE at point-blank range at a Tiger I: YouTube link

Wolfhag