"Crowdfunding Board Removed" Topic

As you probably know, TMP has had a policy for several years now of not allowing commercial announcements on the forum. Since we're in the business of selling advertising, it does not make sense for us to allow free advertising for non-advertisers.

However, we've still had the Crowdfunding board, and there was a lot of confusion about which projects could be discussed there – dead or ended vs active Kickstarters, Kickstarters which created products for active manufacturers, Kickstarters that were 'done' but still taking orders, etc. etc. etc.

And then there were the companies that said they should get to post about their project, because they were sure somebody else had done so too.

Therefore, I've decided to end the confusion by removing the Crowdfunding board entirely.

I am not happy about this development

Well, you don't have to be happy.
Dear Editor has decided that if something is advertised here, the advertising should be paid for. I may miss "NEWS" of the hobby, but I can see his point.

Just make sure that our most prolific poster gets the memo.

Sensible business decision.

I agree fully and completely !! If you do not pay for advertisement --you should not try to use this platform to do so!!
Only reasonable.
HOWEVER --if you do pay --?????????

Russ Dunaway

If you do pay, running a Hobby News story is much better than posting a forum topic.

1. Hobby News appears at the top of the homepage
2. Hobby News also runs in the sitewide sidebar for 30 days
3. A forum topic has no headline pic, and scrolls down the page where it is easily lost.
4. If advertisers post their news on the forum, then non-advertisers will get the idea it's OK for them, too.

A semi-related question. Wargame Vault is an advertiser and we see news about newly released WV items posted here, which is fine. Is it OK for authors on WV to post, or does it have to come from Steve at WV himself?

Most of the news on TMP from Wargame Vault comes off the RSS feed or the Deal of The Day feed, we normally only post things ourselves twice a year to announce our annual sales.

Crowdfunding is becoming a large part of this hobby. To not include it here is a mistake. I understand why it is being done, but wonder if there is a way to still include it on one form or another?

TMP has abandoned its role as being Hobby News.
Pay for play.
Bill's house, Bill's rules.

You scratch my back, I scratch your back.
Advertising with TMP is quite inexpensive.
We can't survive if we give it away for free.

I don't have a problem with this directive as you could literally have an entire series of web pages dedicated to just gaming projects from Kickstarter. The few that have been posted on this site are just a drop in the bucket from what is really going on in the gaming world. On many of the FB gaming groups there are continuous ads for many of these projects, but you really need to go to Kickstarter to view the projects themselves, look at the prices, and judge for yourself if you want to take a chance on it or not. There's nothing stopping anyone who visits TMP from just going to Kickstarter and sorting through it themselves.

Out of curiosity, I ran a few searches on KS, never having used it before, and (to be honest) not quite understanding it. I got north of 800 hits related to gaming, miniatures, and related subjects. Seems like a lot of possible business ventures, as a group, to expect TMP to potentially host without them paying advertising fees. They are raising money for themselves, after all, and many are already established businesses running the campaigns. The notion that the Editor here should not do the same seems very odd.

If advertisers can run Kickstarter Hobby News items then there's no problem AFAICS.

I look forward to the daily updates from the next Reaper Bones campaign….

I get the desire, and the need to make money from advertising, but alas a lot of hobby "news" will no longer be covered here, so I and others will need to look elsewhere for that I suppose.

It would be nice if some happy medium could be worked out between the KS promoters and TMP, so we can keep abreast of the latest developments on one site.

Sadly, I suspect that is not possible in some cases.

I'd like to announce my Kickstarter to fund a new Crowdfunding board for TMP…

Not happy with this

Not happy either

If you want to pay the advertising for a Kickstarter you like, please feel free.

its not been this way for years at all – in fact before Christmas i posted one project in the crowdfunding page for my lads card game – NO ISSUES

After christmas my own KS removed several times with no explanation – and Bill eventaually after quizzing him asking for money for the privilege of advertising something i havent even made a penny from. At times some KS only just fund the release of said miniatures and dont make a mass of money.

Fact is not all KS work – and its not all big companies releasing stuff on KS.

would be good to know how it costs so much to run a website!!! Talk about trying to pull a fast one.

would be good to know how it costs so much to run a website!!! Talk about trying to pull a fast one.

Cost of the server, cost for bandwidth, cost for myself and four staffers… it all adds up!

Advertising cost: as little as $5 USD per month

Berenzed, sorry I can't agree with you on that. Whether you make money on the KS or not is irrelevant – why should one commercial enterprise subsidise another by providing free advertising for your project? If you went to any of the hobby magazines (WI, MW, WSS), you'd expect to pay for the advertising there, wouldn't you?

Sure, Bill's been tightening up on the rules recently but that's inevitable with so many more Kickstarters taking place than a few years ago.

would be good to know how it costs so much to run a website!!!

Run one and you can let people do whatever you want on it.

I'm with Bill on this one.

Wolfhag

Bill

Could you have not come up with a one month advertising fee for Crowdfunding announcements? (a fee that covers the time period of the crowdfunding project).

One person stated that paying for something that you don't know will make you money or not is the risk of doing business. Even the people who run miniature companies take the risk that making something they like will also be like by enough people that they will recoup all the cost involved and make something beyond that, but that doesn't always happen.

Then there are the crowdfunding projects are no different from any other business venture, so why should they be allowed the free advertising and not an established manufacture who is taking a chance on what they are doing that is new?

I get Bill's point but there are crowdfunding efforts I would never have known about if it wasn't on TMP. How about just listing the name of the company and a link to Kickstarter?

I Just don't equate a crowdfunding effort for a product that isn't for sale yet and a product that is already being produce and is for sale.

I don't see how this is hurting anyone. If someone like OG is threaten by a Kickstarter then perhaps there is a demand for a product they don't produce. Maybe OG should produce it. But I don't see how listing it here harms anyone.

I helped create, and run, a KS, a few years ago. I shared with the business owner that he could advertise it on TMP, for very little money. He invested a lot of time, and effort on building his products, which would have produced a gross income of $22,000 USD, if he sold out. I warned him that he needed to invest in advertising, and that using TMP would be like laser focus on his target market. He declined.

I even suggested he approach Bill on a trade: advertising for product given. Nope. He would not listen.

I warned him to hold off on making the products, until he had the orders on his KS.

The KS ran, and he sold a total of $3,200 USD worth of product -- far less than the $22,000 USD worth of product he produced, anticipating he would sell out -- with no money spent on advertising.

That was more than two years ago. He shut down his business, and he sill has $18,000 USD+ of inventory sitting in boxes, in his shop. What a surprise that his business failed… NOT!.

Running a KS is a business venture. You have to risk investing money in a business venture, before you can succeed. Advertising is a part of that risky investment. If you will not spend money to make money, don't bother even starting a business venture. Just go back to dreaming that you are a legend, in your own mind. Cheers!

KS is supposed to be like giving an investment pitch to "the world", so you get a large number of people investing a few dikkars instead of a few people investing large ammounts. This follows the cardinal rule of business – Never invest your own money in your business.

That sounds cynical, but it pushes your decisions into sub optimal decisions like inordinate focus on short term returns. "My investors will see less profit this quarter" is a very different value proposition than "I will lose my house this quarter". Your risk tolerance adjusts accordingly.

Sgt Slag,
Good posting.

I'm working with some people that have multiple KS with success and failures in other game publishing endeavors. They want to make sure I don't make the same mistakes they've made in the past. I have a sales and marketing background which should help too.

We'll be developing the product first with a watered down/play test version available as a free PDF. That will serve as advertising and get people interested. We also developed an email list of internet bloggers, military colleges, game clubs, and product reviewers who will get a pre-release copy of the KS version to get the word out.

We'll be using a US based print-on-demand company who lives 3 hours away from me so no international shipping problems or getting stuck with inventory as we can print any number of games. We also have an overseas offset printer available if we get over 1500 orders.

I've attended lectures on game design and production at ConSim World and they said game designers are some of the worst businessman, a legend in their own mind as you said with a "Build it and they will come" attitude.

Since we'll have the product 90% completed when we go live on KS we should be able to get delivery quickly and we don't need a large number of orders. I'm just trying to make sure we don't lose money.

What kind of game does your friend have? I know someone that might be interested in taking them off his hands.

Wolfhag

they said game designers are some of the worst businessman, a legend in their own mind

That really applies to any creative types … people who have a drive to make new things. As a friend of mine used to say (from his own unpleasant experience), "The art of computer science is an art. The business of computer science is the business."

You certainly can be good at both, but being very good at one doesn't make you good at the other. I believe being really good at the creative part warps your perspective on the business side.

I think "legends in their own minds" applies to the business side. Because they are good at the creation, they believe everything else is trivial and simple.

There are hundreds of thousands of highly talented musicians who couldn't make a dollar at it if someone walked up to them and offered them a dollar to play any song they wanted.

I spoke to the president of a board game publishing company with 40+ years of experience. He was adamant about designers NOT being the game developer and running play testing. It's too much of a one viewpoint on the game.

Wolfhag

Sounds like TMP losing more revenue that it stands to gain.

I'm sure fans of mini KS use TMP for that purpose, as a list and review of upcoming KS and past ones. They may end up getting membership, clicking on banners, making TMP money.

Now said people will need to find another gaming site that lists KS, and get their membership there and click on their banners.

Also remember lots of KS buyers may be kids, or people who may know little of wargaming, with KS bring their first taste. When searching for their fave KS, TMP pops up… Fresh blood! Why is that not the ideal set up??

I would wonder how many KS makers are otherwise aware of TMP or feel the need to advertise here?

TMP has hundreds of pages of minis. I can't see how one of KS can break the bank, but I can see how not having it may, in the long term.

Now said people will need to find another gaming site that lists KS

You mena like kickstarter.com?

No. I mean a site that has people talking about the KS in the way TMP did. But your right, KS is the obvious go to, as TMP has let them down.

There are other wargaming community sites out there, some would be fine with KS discussion. I still feel TMP will lose people, now and in the future to them. Especially through search engine searches for KS projects.

"Gee, I wonder if there's a new bones KS?"
Searches 'bones KS'
"Oh cool there's one on KS, hey wait, the next result is a question on Bob's wargaming site."
Goes to Bob's wargaming site.
"Cool, there are a lot of people giving their opinion on this new bones. Hey, that ad at top has some metal vampires I could use."
Clicks on banner, Bob makes 50 cents.

PS: Yes, I know Reaper would probably show up and TMP in that case may, it's just an example, insert the name of any small KS outfit you like.

Actually, you geto KS listings first, then the specfici company. A board or blog would have to deliberately target web searches on that specfifc topic to get a casual hit.

Also,, TMP doesn't monetize by people clicking on llinks.

[quoote] TMP has let them down.

Really? Exactly what is the obligation to the KS project? Is that obligation for every project? What are other sites doing to fulfill the obligtion beyond just "being okay".

Do you take ads from competitors? or other news sites as it were?