"Updating WW2 Armored Car for Twilight 1960?" Topic

I have been wodering how to boost some mobility and firepower for the 1960s. Think of it as either boosting an armies firepower on the cheap with surplus or maybe if you will a Twilight 2000 in the Twilight 1960 scenario.

There were still alot of armoured cars around by the late fifties. Maybe not first line kit by then. So what kind of changes that were available would have made them a working thing on the battlefield?

Maybe I can start with some simple ideas.
MMake the armoured cars still viable on a WW3 in 1960 scenario or just useful generally, especially for all those 1960 conflicts from Malaysia, Indonesia to Vietnam.

Something simple like the GMC Fox. Maybe justasimple rebuild and re-engine given the fifty cal and M1919 coax are still tiotally vialbe for convoy security and COIN.

But what do you do for the other cars?

The 2 pounders, 37mm and 15mm BESAs are pretty much limited. So let's look at some of the popular armaments for main and coax.

The Browning 1919 in 30-06 is still totally viable so should not be a problem. Ammo still in high scale production too.

The 7.92mm BESA. Actually quite a good mg. While rebarrellingto 7.62NATO is an option, the avaiability of 8mm Mauser is still pretty widespread and not a problem. So if it already there, it can actually be kept.

Anything new like M60, MG3 or MG58 I am going to ignore as they would be scarce and in too much demand.

However, if anyone needs a cheap and available mg what about all those surplus guns from aircraft like the AN serious of rifle caliber Brownings? Wouldn't most of the commonwealth have had warehouses full of .303 Brownings still around? The supply of .303BR is still in production and widely available. Being ex aircraft guns they also have a cyclic rate of from 1,000-1,200 rpm. So these are a great option for wither coax replacements of as mounts on top of turrest.

Same goes for the ex US An serries in 30-06.

For the main guns, like I said the two pounder is sooooo limited by AP only and the 37mm while having various ammo, doesn't quite cut it. I want something that can take out light armour and bunkers. So my way of thinking goes to two specific directions.

The L5A1 76mm low pressure gun as in the Saladin. That things was designed to take out bunkers. I have seen the later gun using the same ammo and what it did to the inside of a brand new T55. So no problem with picking this gun.

Anywhere that a 2 pounder or a 37mm can fit, this can go. The recoil is about the same, tThe weight of the gun and mount are close. You might need an update for the sights and traverse and elevation rather than a shoulder stock. The only limitation I can thing of is that the Daimler and Humber mkIV turretes may be too small. Something like the Staghound should not be a problem at all. The turret of something larger like an AEC is merely a swap of main guns.

What my other choice would be, especially for the limited turrets like the Daimler and Humber mkIV would be a Polsten 20mm.

Again the size, weight and recoil would all be within the same categories or less than the 2 pounders or 37mm. You could probably still get away with the shoulder stocks rather than elevation and traverse controls.

The 20mm rounds were normally HEI or SAPI and ball. They would be able to chew through most bunkers and any light armour while still posing a threat to tanks.

You can rebuild and re-engine most vehicles. I am not sure what the viability of the Daimlers was lie as a chassis for that matter how long the preselctors and such lasted in use. Which is surprising since I have seen videos of Daimlers still in sevice during a parade in the Gulf in the '90s!

The other choice would be to mount these updated turrets on something more viable. Think the Australian M113 Fire Support vehicle with the Saladin turrets.

An upgraded Staghound turret witha 76mm on a M113 would be a thought, althought he Staghound should be a big enough vehicle to update on its' own.

Anyway a couple of my thoughts.
I seem to avoid the M8 Greyhound, I wonder if it is that open top thing?

Any thougts?

Yeah mis-spellings. Diabetic macular edema is killing my spelling. I used to be so fastidious,,,,.

Greyhounds were in use in Vietnam and their turrets even used on M113. So nothing wrong with their .50 cal and 37mm guns.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Colombian M8 Greyhounds had their cannons stripped & replaced with a .50CAL machine gun, & the skate rail re-equipped to fire TOW missiles. They were re-engined with diesels IIRC.

Other Colombian variants included A variant with a quad .50CAL turret for AA use, but IIRC are still in service for highway protection missions.

The Brazilian EE-9 was based on the M8 as well…in fact the initial production run was very, very similar to the M8. Later versions had a French turret with a 90mm low pressure gun, so maybe that might be an option for the Greyhound too.

Damon.

Makes sense. Like I said, I pretty well didn't think of the Greyhound too much.

What would you think of a Daimler and Humber armoured car updated with the 20mm Polsten?

How about a Staghound refitted with the low pressure 76mm ? The same gunas the Saladin.

It might be possible to upgrade the Staghound with the Saladin turret. But OTOH keep in mind that countries like Italy used the Staghound up to 1970 unaltered. It was also used by Israel & Lebanon (in both th Mk.1 & Mk.III variats). Apparently Switzerland had, or offered, variants with either a 20mm cannon or a 47mm cannon. Presumably the latter was a single shot & the former automatic.

Damon.

I just read too that the Lebanese used a Staghound variant with the AEC turret, complete with a 75mm cannon. So certainly possible it could be retrofitted with the Saladin cannon. But I suspect many countries that used the Staghound post-war saw the 37mm cannon as sufficient for most light armored threats they would encounter in the 1950s, '60s & into the '70s, especially with 3rd world armies.

Damon.

If I was going to jury rig something ala Twilight 1960 I would mount a 106mm recoiless rifle on a M20 command car or over the 37mm of an M8 Greyhound.

For Twilight 1960, you only need the one, and lots of things happen one time--experiments, field improvisations and what have you. I'd go about it the other way. What do you like or have handy which was made prior to 1960? And what sort of balance do you want to strike between armament and ease of securing ammo? If I were in a post-WWIII Germany trying to get home, I'd want an HMG which took ammo in my supply chain--meaning .50 cal for Americans--no matter whose armored car I'd acquired. If I get into a serious battle--well, I just don't have the firepower and armor for it. Anyway, battles are for people who still have replacement depots.

For WWIII itself, the AC would have to be available in serious numbers--still in use or warehoused--and same for any upgraded weaponry or engine unless it was actually being produced for some other purpose. Personally, I have my doubts about putting serious anti-tank guns on armored cars. Yes, it will work from ambush, but the thing about war is that you often have to fight in circumstances you wouldn't have picked. But this doesn't mean some four-star in the Pentagon couldn't have pushed such an idea.

West Germans and Americans used the M-8s up until at least the early 1960s, and I suspect until the Luchs, and/or those cute little SPZ Kurz vehicles became available, for patrolling the inner-German border.

M151 Mutts too (for the Americans), along with M41 Tanks (West Germans), then M47s (mainly West Germans since the US abandoned those to European allies – virtually everyone was fielding these in Europe) and M48s (Americans and West Germans) a bit later.

M38 Jeeps with 106mm RRs, as well as Mutts, and many Jeeps or Jeep-like vehicles carrying early ATGMs too – Entac, SS-11s, etc., etc.. .30 and .50 cals on the "Jeeps", Mutts, and other softskins too (Landrovers, etc.)., as well as radio cars and mortars.

TOWs and Milan slightly later.

Panhard 90mm/Eland turret would probably fit on quite a few WW2 armoured cars