Help support TMP


"[Austria 1805+] Mystery Man- Who was Carneville really?" Topic


8 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board


Areas of Interest

Napoleonic

Featured Hobby News Article


Top-Rated Ruleset

War Games Rules 1750 1850


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 


Featured Profile Article

First Look: Barrage's 28mm Streets & Sidewalks

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian looks at some new terrain products, which use space age technology!


Featured Book Review


326 hits since 13 Jan 2021
©1994-2021 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2021 9:04 p.m. PST

As a spin-off to the old thread 'Most underrated Napoleonic commander'.

I wrote on Page 2

The Austrians show up well
Biographies of Austrian Generals with Essays by Digby Smith

but again I'm surprised that the emigré Carneville (who knew that?) brothers doesn't have any useful information.

[For the uninterested, one was the Brigade commander of Grenz who fought so well at Telnitz/ Austerlitz, under Kienmayer, also a very well experienced GM], while the Russians [Buxhowden] largely stood and watched.

So I see, for the first time ever, that the name "Carneville" appears to be or may be a corruption of mangled German-French or something- as N-S cites here:
Russian-Austrian Order-of-Battle at Austerlitz: 2 December 1805-The Left Wing

a certain "Folliot de Crenneville, GM Karl" as the general in charge of the all infantry Grenze brigade under GM Kienmayer.

Yet, neither wikis nor N-S provide any substantive information about the character at Austerlitz-
you have to scroll to: F23 Folliot de Crenneville(-Poutet), Ludwig Karl Graf:
Austrian Generals 1792-1815 'F'

While an interesting story, ships officer to world class naval expert and philanderer, serving Austria, not a word about 1805 campaign.

The name 'Carneville' appears all over and is quoted and requoted- Nafziger OOB; Castle (Ospreys); Duffy; Hortoulle; Stutterheim!; etc.

Only N-S cites a completely different name- yet there's not ample explanation on 'Carneville' either.

Personally I can't see how the other fits in, or is even identified correctly.

Thanks for any assistance_
davew

Allan F Mountford13 Jan 2021 10:31 p.m. PST

I think our man at Austerlitz was Oberst Count Franz Simon de Carneville. He had a similar vanguard command under Kienmayer in 1809.

MightyOwl14 Jan 2021 3:51 a.m. PST

Both Franz Simon (François-Charles-Adrian Vicomte Symon de Carneville) and Georg Carneville were major-generals in 1805. It's in the Militär Almanach und Schematismus of 1805. In most orders of battle for Austerlitz it's Franz Simon Carneville who is named as a brigade commander. General Karl von Stutterheim in his eyewitness account of Austerlitz mentions Carneville as a brigade commander.

Louis Charles Folliot de Crenneville was assigned to the Marine Department of the War Ministry in Vienna at the beginning of 1805 and was promoted to general major in that year. The Bibliographical Dictionary of Austrian Generals lists him as taking part in the defence of Venice. However, in 'Sur le Pas de la Grande Armée' by Berjaud, Crenneville is listed as commanding two battalions of the 9th Grenze on October 27th 1805.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP14 Jan 2021 8:26 p.m. PST

Thanks gents,
I didn't see the 1809 connection in Armies on the Danube.
Yes I knew Stutterheim detailed his presence- just a msytery why N-S seems to be less reliable thatn I expected.

Really disheartening to see old flannel on such a site- both this and Nafzigers tripe on the Reserve Grenadiers need to be re-written based on the knowledge we have now. The latter is correct neither in intent nor detail in various ways.

I note for posterity that the Carneville(s) do not appear in any 'higher' biographical references of the Napoleonic Wars- neither Chandlers Dictionary, Palmers Encyclopaedia, Haythornthwaites Who's Who… etc.

Do they appear in the emigrés oriented literature at all?
Thanks again, d

MightyOwl15 Jan 2021 2:35 a.m. PST

I think they were most well known for organising and leading the Carneville Legion.

This is from the Austrian Military History Magazine Streffleurs of 1847.

"The Viscount Franz Simon of Carneville was in Royal French service as a colonel. After the 19th December 1792 and 1st March 1793 Conventions he set up in the Netherlands in 1793, at his own expense, a volunteer corps for frequent service.
This consisted of two squadrons of Hussars, two companies of jägers and two companies of infantry. The Count served in Austrian pay through the whole war. The greater part of the unit was made of French emigrants. The corps was, according to an actual provision used to serve at the fore (advance guard?) and was used to do so. Frequent opportunities were found to excel with valour and good service."

Allan F Mountford15 Jan 2021 4:27 a.m. PST

This has turned into an interesting thread! ;-)

Some further information, albeit from 1809:

PDF link

Free Corps Carneville
Inhaber (Owner) Commander: Oberst Count Franz Simon de Carneville.
Jäger Battalion – commander Major August Docteur
Before Aspern: Some attached them to the Brigade Gratze, Division Rohan, IV Corps while others put it in the Brigade Grill, Division Dedovich, IV Corps or maybe as autonomous Brigade Carneville, Division Rohan, IV Corps. Sometimes called as IX Feldjäger Battalion.
At Wagram: fought with Brigade Provenchères, Division Radetzky, IV Corps.
Carneville Hussars – led by Count Franz Simon de Carneville
Before Aspern: in the Brigade Gratze, Division Rohan, IV Corps
At Aspern: Brigade Carneville, Division Rohan, IV Corps then Brigade Stutterheim, Division Rohan, IV Corps
At Wagram: Brigade Provenchères, Division Radetzky, IV Corps

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP15 Jan 2021 2:41 p.m. PST

>This has turned into an interesting thread! ;-)
Whew, thank you Sir, I feel most honoured… *medal*

Yes I'll admit to not taking my blinkers off and looking further along the time line.
Knew about the Revolutionary freikorps, but forgot, hadn't gone to 1809 as I've been concentrating on 'them Russkis' as an augmentation to my Austerlitz kaiserliks [who really shouldn't be fighting alone].

My Carneville is one of the sombre staff in grey coat and unadormed horse from WF, perhaps he deserves an upgrade!?

Thanks all
dcup

John Edmundson15 Jan 2021 3:39 p.m. PST

Certainly his little band dressed in pretty uniforms :-)

Cheers,
John

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.