"Any info on Warlord Games new ACW initiative??" Topic

138SquadronRAF
I just don't understand the logic at all.

If you are looking to start ACW you'd buy these if they were in 15mm at this price, so no sales lost there.

If you have 15mm armies to expand- these won't fit so no sales there.

Yeah Tin hat, Warlord is likely looking at new gamers interested in this ACW period, and know those with collections already probably wouldn't be willing to rebase anyway.

The scale issue is just a continuation of whats become pretty much SOP for the gaming market, what I call the 'Buy Me" rule.

pzivh43 makes an excellent point;
Three companies all 'covering' One period, each to "their' scale.
I can appreciate the "strike while the iron is hot' mentality but enough already.

RE: 15's, TY amazing 'eye candy', but 15mm can turn a 4 x 8 table into a parking lot. IMHO, if any period should be 12mm, it would be WW I forward with the arrival of the AFV.

altfritz: when I say new Warlord Games resin, I mean this: YouTube link

Cesar Paz,

TY for the video link.

Part time gamer
My point exactly on the other thread.

More scales, more basing options= less likely hood you'll find an opponent you can play against. Not good for the hobby.

Tin Hat

Then stop all the rules writers producing all the rules with different basing options…

I don't understand people complaining. It is an innovative product that Warlord clearly thinks there is a market for. If it doesn't match what you are already collecting then it isn't aimed at you. Admire them and move on…

And if you already have a 15mm ACW collection then surely you already have the basic troop types.

These won't match my 20mm ACW collection but why should they and why should I expect them to?

Mike

I think it will interesting to see this product line develop. The next waves will be important for the games support as well as the timeline for product to reach the market.
If they can get interest and supportive waves might be something to watch. However, if it's ages before new waves land and there are large gaps in what folks expect to see it could be disappointing.
Nobody wants to buy into new shiny and for some reason the product is dropped and you are…..(fill it in).

Hi

This looks really interesting but I am a bit confused about the rules to be used and the figure basing.

Are the rules Black Powder II with the ACW supplement included?

If so how do you form 'march columns' (that look like march columns) with the large bases (I only have the original Black Powder rules so might be missing something that came in with the second edition).

Grateful for any clarification.

Cheers Paul

Warlord has previewed today some of the supporting cast prepared for the line -

"I don't understand people complaining. It is an innovative product that Warlord clearly thinks there is a market for. If it doesn't match what you are already collecting then it isn't aimed at you. Admire them and move on…"

Black Hat Miniatures, you've pretty much wrapped it up, and with a big red bow just in time for Christmas.

Having ACW in 12mm and 28s already, and recently having sold my 15s collection, I can't justify a switch to Warlord's line here. Still, what a terrific opportunity for gamers unencumbered with such legacy lead.

If it doesn't match what you are already collecting then it isn't aimed at you.

That same comment could be made regarding a large number of products produced that people comment negatively on. To be fair many of those negative comments come from people who are genuinely in the market for new production of the subject. Some of their observations will in turn help others who are on the fence decide whether to buy the new product. It also provides information that may be useful for other future producers of that subject.

I've got about 2500 painted ACW, all 15mm.

I think that any company that comes out with a state-of-the-art range that is pretty much comprehensive, in one box, deserves a medal, no matter what s=size it is.

I'm not the target market, and I still think that this is a tremendous product. Good for Warlord.

Personal reaction?

Nice looking product – 30 years too late!

I'm warm to this new range, but why the mix of headgear for the Union infantry? Are the sculpts identical between both Union and Reb, with only the command base different?

I phoned Warlord yesterday and they call it the "Epic Battle Scale" and don't like to have it called by its measurement which is 13.5 millimeter which they give as the "scale" after being pressed about what "Epic Battle" means. They are very excited about it and told me "you'll be surprised at how much stuff we've got planned for this". I can see it being a hit honestly with a certain market. I don't like plastic and if I went the grand tactical route I'd go with Adler. I am busy now with 25mm Dixon. I am curious though to see what he meant by additions to the Black Powder rules to make them more grand tactical.

Good intel Wealdmaster.

Likely that Warlord knows how to tease the market here just enough, and leaves some of the rest for us to ferret out of them (sustains the interest that much better)……and not criticizing this "discovery" process at all either.

I'm just glad they're seeing the smaller scales as viable product. The 28mm skirmish genre has consumed too much of the development energy within the hobby for far too long IMO…..I'm ready for a resurgence in 'Epic' scale gaming (mid-to-small scale sizes), and sure many in the hobby are too.

In addition, Black Powder and Hail Caesar aren't skirmish system, but sold as games to play with lots of beautiful 28s in bountiful-sized regiments and units. Guys in my area salute those who have painted up such mass quantities of big figures that are encourage to use with these rule sets (we never could).

Agreed, I have tried BP once or twice but it always felt a little off to me. Not really a rules set but a set of tools that one can pick and choose from to forge a game out of. That is what it says on the tin so to speak from Warlord. If you watch the videos with Rick P. he also confirms this is the intent. I think there is a pretty big potential here to reinvigorate a period which has fallen out of favor in recent years. Funny how so many rules sets are out there for ACW but not many have really caught on. As some of the main critics have pointed out, a number of heavy systems that slow down play unnecessarily or rules ideas that are just modifications of the legendary Johnny Reb system which is not a system to everyone's liking even though it has so many followers.

Well my copy of WI arrived today so I have been able to give the figures a close inspection and my conclusions are in line with what I already thought from photos I've seen and comments I've read from others. Now I will be starting the ACW pretty much from scratch so one of the most debated issues -that of scale – is not really much of an issue for me. I do have a few Peter Pig and Kallistra models left over from painting projects earlier in the year so was able to make some comparisons. The Kallistra infantry models would certainly be compatible for my tastes but the mounted Kallistra Officer's horse is significantly smaller, looking like a child's pony compared to the Warlord mounted officer's horse. I only have some PP artillerymen and although they look stockier than the Warlord plastics, I would be happy to use them in the same army, though not in the same unit. The next step is to buy some PP mounted officers and characters to see how they will fit in as I would like some variety in my command groups. I am certainly hopeful this will work. Issues of greater importance to me are the amount and clarity of detail on the figures. If I am going to literally paint thousands of these figures then I cannot have figures with too much detail as my OCD demands it will be painted! It was therefore with considerable relief that I noted the detail on the figures was clear but definitely not excessive, allowing a quite speedy paint job. I have undercoated several stands of figures so will put the painting to the test after Christmas. So with my mind fairly settled in respect of the actual figures my only real concerns now are in respect of the rules as I have only ‘guested' in a couple of Black Powder games so am no expert. I would certainly like some additional information about the rules and how they will cope with ‘Epic' games.

FlyXwire

I second your observations about the 28mm scale taking too much energy out of the wargaming scene for too long and it's good to see smaller scales get a look in.

When 15mm figures first hit the mags all those years ago I remember reading about how they would revolutionise wargaming , and that the days of 25mms were numbered. One reviewer stated that maybe in years to come there may be a few 'dinosaurs' still about who had 25mm armies !

To be fair it did look like that would happen until the advent of cheaper plastics came along (lots of people said these were a gimmick and not the way forward too) and all of a sudden everyone had identical plastic armies.

I though it was about time someone tried to resurrect the smaller scale seeing as the cost of metal 15's now almost exceeded the cost of plastic 25mm!

So what of the future?
Will other manufacturers adopt this scale? Will they had the resources to compete or will we have a bizarre situation where several almost identical scales try and jostle along will a couple of MM's between them, or will this not matter anymore as everyone in the near future will be printing their own figures in whatever scale they damn well want?

You guys are all forwarding important questions (and hopefully Warlord is monitoring our comments).

If someone commits to invest in an "Epic" [battle-size] project like this, then the integrated rules foundation to deliver on these efforts deserves some worthy scrutiny.

Sure, the minis could always been used with other rule sets, with modified mechanisms possibly for tracking stand [strip] casualties, but hopes are that the Black Powder adaptation offers up a good, primary game experience.

Part of the miniatures roll-out here ought to be some rules information from Warlord on this Black Powder evolution to 'Epic'.

I'm a bit concerned with the photos thus far that they only seem to offer generic uniforms with a mix of hats on the same strip. Not cool! They really need to get the hats right even if the equipment is generalized (not ideal but acceptable at this scale). So I hope to see some stuff in the near future at least showing more specific and correct headgear.
Also, for those interested in painting these fellows, here is an excellent video showing results that can be easily gotten IMO.
YouTube link

More info: YouTube link

I like this as someone who doesn't have any American Civil War miniatures, it seems like a good starting point.

I was tempted initially but the cannon wheels are missing spokes and look like Risk boardgame pieces to me.

Pity!.

Can anyone measure the size of the base? Length and width?

Bohdan, the infantry bases are 60mm wide x 20mm deep. The artillery bases are 30mm wide x 42mm deep(yes, 42).The officers base is 20mm x 20mm square.

I'm intrigued and at the same time sort of put off. I agree with those criticizing the generic infantry figures (and also the incorrect arms positions). I'm also put off by the generic regiment size: 100 figures. By 1862 you could look at almost any battle and find regiments ranging in size from 100 men to 900 men. I hope the rules allow for that. I'll be interested to see how this progresses.

I always thought the two sides in the American Civil War were broadly similar in equipment and appearance, it being a Civil War and everything?

Similar, but not identical. Some of the states had distinctive uniform items and some regiments, like the Zouaves, had very unique uniforms. Head gear could vary widely.

Zouaves have been previewed, and other distinctive units and/or uniforms have been hinted at (by reps of Warlord).

This collection will grow, it's just a week or so into the pre-release pre-ordering for the basic plastics.

The main sticking point is jackets. By mid to late '62, the large majority of Confederate depot issue uniforms featured shell jackets (waist length, standing collar) with only a few regiments able and willing to shell out the additional funds for frock coats (knee length). CSA depots issued very few sack coats (thigh length, falling collar). OTOH, the sack coat was the most commonly issued garment for Federal infantry. Even the Perrys messed this up with their first plastics box (half were in shells, half in sacks, with some awkward purchase numbers required to get even numbers for regiments).

Game figures are moment in time. Collect the early frock coats, and you'll be largely 'incorrect' for the late war look.

Buy a sharp zouave unit, and you'll have the same battalion in shredded butternut a year later.

Caps, hats, packs, rolls, Enfields, Springfields, sword bayonets, or spikes, corps insignia, sprigs of bush, or tails of buck, those snipers in green are back to blue again. Certainly must consider the shoe-less masses, right, and would white leggins look closer to dust after just a short march, or brown after the rain storm the night before battle?

If you care to play your ACW collection on the tabletop, your exacting figures will be wrong for so many battles of the war that you want to include them in.

Well whad'ya know, look what just arrived in the mail.

These are cool! I probably won't paint them, but the shoulder-to-shoulder strips look sharp and proper.

Hopefully, some of the young guys in my area will jump on a few sets for gaming at the shop. (and we'll give them all the support we can)

David Taylor's stand measurements above are right on the money!

FlyXwire: +1

In all honesty I'm gonna be on this like a gamer on a free pizza! This set (and indeed entire range) are designed for people, well, like me: Folks who have been wanting to get into the period just about forever but because of work, family, etc. haven't had the time to do all the piecemeal hoop-jumping that a 'traditional' wargamer has to do to get into a new period: "Okay, I have to buy the rules from company A, the infantry from company B, The cavalry from company C," etc.

I am with IronMike 100%!

For all my years of wargaming, the only historical period I ever put a tangible investment in was AWI in both 28mm and 6mm.

6mm AWI is cool but it's so, so small it kind of loses something for me. 28m AWI is awesome because of the detail but I only have enough space for a 4 x 6 table in my house, which makes 28mm historical really tough.

Always wanted to do Civil War but wanted to be able to do bigger scale battles on a 4 x 6. This scale is PERFECT for that!

It's perfect for me because I'm jumping in for the first time. I LOVE that they are above 10mm but below 15mm. It makes them have enough detail yet still allow for epic-sized battles in smaller spaces.

I just ordered the mega-set preorder. For what you get for $237 USD it's a freaking steal. I mean 30 regiments totally 3,000 figures? 30 cannons? A free Meade and Lee commander minis? Plus fencing, rulebook AND a full set of MDF buildings?

I mean there are RPG board games out now that alone cost $150.00 USD.

This is so great because it's such an instant jumping point to get in.

For all the complaints about it not being 15mm, well then either you game in ACW 15mm or you game in this scale. I've committed to this scale so all I have to do is buy any additional stuff from Warlord to the scale matches. I don't see how that's any different from investing in 15mm and buying metal blister packs or regimental packs in that scale.

I'm super psyched for this!!

Another great thing about this scale is that it is ideal for Citadel Contrasts! You'll be able to paint up whole battalions in not time at all with the Contrasts. And they'll look great!

I read above in other posts that there will be Zouave and cavalry sets coming on the heels of the starter sets, not sure exactly how soon though.

These plastic figures are quite close to Peter Pig figures, which are on the short side for 15mm. Quite like the artillery even if a few spokes are missing. Mounted General same size as very old Minifigs that came on strips in the 70's.

I have over 4'000 ACW 15mm figures of all makes and 15mm heights. Would it have cost Warlord much to make their figures 2mm taller probably not. Purely a marketing ploy from the new "Games Workshop" a company driven by greed not need.

Think these figures are not that great for me to paint, much prefer painting Battle Honours, Old Glory, Essex, Minifigs, and Blue Moon figures. As mentioned these Warlord 13.5mm troops seem nearer to smaller scale figures, however I have made a much more handsome job of Pendragon 10mm figures than these oddly sculpted figures. I still like the artillery and apart from the spokes they look OK.
All in I know they seem cheap, but in this instance you are definitely getting what you pay for.

Can you tell what style the jackets are at 3' away? I wouldn't let that stop me if I wanted to buy them.

i am really torn.

I have wanted to get into ACW for years, but a combination of time, and energy ( dollars to a lesser extent) have kept me out of it.

I mostly have played 28mm, for the look and the availability, but lets be honest, i dont have the time to paint regiment after regiment of 28mm figs. it takes me years. especially when i have armies in other periods as well.

A chance to buy whole sets of armies for ACW? I admit its tempting.

Yes, i got a sprue out of curiosity. not a great fan of both sides being the same jackets and hats, but no one but me who will play with them will know that.

not sure still, but i do know i am not getting an army any other way any time soon.

The more choices the better. It will drive better products and keep prices competitive in what is already a pricey hobby. As for scale issues, I don't mind because I learned the hard way years ago that when you find a product you like it's best to buy everything you need because it probably won't get cheaper and I've never seen 2 manufacturers match completely in period or scale…up close there's always something different…rough or smooth, size of head or hands, length or width of gun, skinny or fat figures…etc. Warlord Games, PSC, Battlefront will save the Hobby for future generations. After more than 30 years I can see the hobby really evolving, particularly in my two favorite (approximate) scales 28mm and 15mm …one for skirmishes the other for moderate to large size battles depending upon the space you have.

Does anyone know the rational behind 5 bases per regiment? Its honestly the questions that vexes me the most about this scale and set up.

Scale both vertical and horizontal is usually something i stay away from as it makes my head hurt, but the last few years, i am having a harder and harder time with how things scale on the table gamewise vs reality.

I have gone round and round in my life on which scales to paint and play, since i love 28mm, but the battles look silly sometimes compared to smaller scales from a compression standpoint. For me, for example, playing 28mm WSS plays so much better from a game standpoint for maneuver and units on the table when i have a 18 man regiment with a 135mm (2 deep 15mm per) frontage vs a 24 man regiment (2 deep 20 mm standard per man) of 240MM! the 24 man unit "looks" better but is so much more difficult to play with.

the 5 stand thing makes a unit very wide and unwieldy on table space, and even the Warlord photos cram the units in depth to get them in a photo.

I know its all new, but surely someone playtested it?

what's the rational? does the smaller large footprint unit just look and feel that much more realistic from a ground and vertical scale standpoint?

Do I need to play 12-13mm battles on my ping pong table, like i do 28mm??

I agree about the five stand unit. It occupies a foot of table. Let's hope they release separate command stand(s) so we can create smaller units. My concern is the any new releases will probably be in resin, which will not be as high a quality as the plastic sprues.

I went all in on the Big Bundle.

Agreed re the 5 Stand Unit.

I'm going to go with 3 units per stand and use Kallistra command figures to create additional command stands.

Nice Joe!

would love to see how they turn out.

"Do I need to play 12-13mm battles on my ping pong table, like i do 28mm??"

And that's the question.

The more I look at the promo info and various YouTube vids. the more I question the rationale behind the 5 stand unit.

I can understand using the BP concept of small, medium (3 bases) and large (5 bases) units but having every unit at 5 bases seems counter-intuitive: too much table space taken up when deployed into line which goes against the whole 'epic battles' with small scale figures concept.

I went all in based on both scale and how the figures are cast (in line). It will be interesting to see the WG approach in the included rulebook.

+1 Joes Shop
it seems to come down to frontage, here it is 300MM per regiment, is this some new breakthrough in feel and understanding of what its like to control a regiment in combat? are we shorting ourselves the "feel" by making them more maneuverable?

let alone the smallest you can make a column width wise is 60mm, I have 50mm paths and roads for 28MM by heck!

I like the figs and the concept. I am getting some. I am so curious as to all the playtesting that led them to think this works right. Or, was it just maxing the amount on the sprue manufacturing-wise and hang the rules and playing?