"The longest land battle in US history was a huge mistake" Topic

"The fight for the Hurtgen Forest was one of the most devastating battles of all World War II Europe and one of few the U.S. Army lost after landing at Normandy on D-Day. The relatively quick advance through France gave Allied commanders the drive to race to enter Germany. The pace was so fast, they outran their supply lines and had to take a pause – a pause that would result in the longest land battle in U.S. military history.

Having to wait for the Allied supply lines to catch up to the front gave the beleaguered Nazis the chance to regroup and settle down in one of Europe's most dense and dark forests. It was a place the Army should never have entered…"

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Amicalement
Armand

what a great photo!
good to see those boys putting the MG42s to use…
EC

Or given the German helmets in view, is this a shot of GIs in a captured position, looking back towards American lines?

It seems clear they are the new "tenants" of what was Gerry's former digs. Which came already well furnished.

One may assume the previous occupants of this fine hillside property with a view were forcibly evicted.

TVAG

My father in law lost his leg in the Hurtgen fighting. He was drafted right out of high school in 1943. He suffered his wound when his squad just got up and directly charged a German MG position. He said when he was hit it knocked him straight up in the air several feet. He turned 95 this past summer.

My understanding of the Huertgen fighting is that the Roer Dams had to be captured and the only way was thru the forest.

This meant brutal infantry combat with little air or armour support possible, and supply was a nightmare.

So – it was not a mistake as much as something the US army had little experience of and the Germans held all the advantages.

Inevitably, the Germans would be able to mount a defence of their borders and their supply lines would shorten as the allies outran theirs.

I expect SHAEF were ready for this 'pause' though the public wanted it all over by Xmas.

The link Tango provided is pretty good. So it this one … link This may clear up somethings from a historical standpoint. As I have refought Hurtgen a numbers of times with S&T's long OOP game.

Glad you like it my friend! (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

No battle is a mistake. You make operational movement plans to contact the enemy. Where the battle proceeds, ebbs and flows, from there is unpredictable.

I am researching where my four uncles were wounded and killed in Europe at this time. He interns at the Fort Bennington Infantry Museum at this time. Lol, he talks to me more about military history now than he did when he was in college. Lol.

There were certainly plenty of mistakes made with the Hurtgen. when the 28th Division was sent in, it was the only offensive action taking place on the entire Western Front (another planned offensive was postponed but for some reason they didn't hold back the 28th). So the Germans were able to give their undivided attention to throwing back the Bloody Bucket Division.

He interns at the Fort Bennington Infantry Museum at this time.

Ft. Benning, unless they changed the name because Gen. Benning was with the CSA in ACW … 😁😎

I hate auto spell check. Still Fort Bennington. Though part of the base is still called Fort Mitchell which was the name of one of the forts originally.

Yes, still don't think they are going to change any Forts' names as they were with the CSA.

I think they will change the names of CSA associated bases. It's a cheap and easy way to look like they are doing something.

I don't think it matters much what a base is called, but I think we will see, over the next couple of years, most change names. I'd guess they'll select heroic figures from the 'good war' [WW2] and efface the embarrassing ACW figures.

You may be correct … but you have not seen the riots that included destroying many statues of CSA or even others, who
were slave owners in the USA's past. E.g. many of our founding fathers. Also, including Grant(!?), and Lincoln(!?), which just shows the rioters are ignorant of history

Regardless Slavery was and is wrong … period !

This also included the local/state removal of statues of CSA, Slave Owning Founding Fathers, change of street names, etc.

Also included Columbus, Douglas, TR, etc.

This is classic Marxist Communist, etc., dogma, removing a peoples' history, culture, etc. The only thing is service to the state, etc.

What should happen, IMO is put up historical markers that explain who these people were, why they were, what they did, etc., etc. Even if you just wanted to move the statues to a museum type setting/location. We can't forget the good, bad and ugly of our past. As we know, those that fail to study history … etc., etc.

Another interesting thing going on in the USA.

The Washington DC Football Team dropped its name the Washington Redskins. They have not come up with a replacement, yet. They had a beautiful logo of a American Indian Brave. They should have just taken something from local history and call them e.g. the Algonquins, or some other tribe.

The Cleveland, OH Baseball team will drop its name from the
Indians to? They did have a cartoony Indian logo that could be considered "offensive", but it was/is a cartoon ! Again a local Indian tribe would be a good choice to replace the "Indians" name. E.g.: Top 6 Indian Tribes in OH :

The Shawnee Tribe.
The Delaware Tribe.
The Ottawa Tribe.
The Miami Tribe.
The Wyandot Tribe.
The Seneca-Cayuga.

I think the Cleveland Shawnee would be great.

We do have teams the Chiefs and Braves, as name of sports teams and no one has or should have a problem with that.

Sorry to go waay OT …

But as you can see I find a lot of what is going on in USA … very upsetting and disturbing … to me anyway.

Historically slavery wasn't wrong. It is wrong now. Wrong and right have changed through history. Grant did acquire a slave (inherited or a gift from his father-in-law) which he set free. BTW, no Republican owned slaves. Grant was a Democrat at the time. What are people going to do go back through history and check on anyone with the word 'Great' attached to their name and check if they owned slaves and then remove it?

You are trying to talk sense, use logic, etc. Much of that type of thinking is rare these days …

@ Legion 4

The Cleveland Shawnee would be attacked in its turn as "cultural appropriation".

You are right, it Marxist Year Zero stuff.

You are probably right … You can't please everybody.

My other though was the Cleveland area at the early 1900s, was the number one oil drillers in the US. They can't use the named Oilers, because Houston has it. Maybe the Cleveland Drillers ?

You are right, it Marxist Year Zero stuff.

Yes just turn on the news, many in Federal and state gov't want to turn the US into "A Workers Paradise". We see how well that worked out.

The Washington DC Football Team dropped its name the Washington Redskins. They have not come up with a replacement, yet. They had a beautiful logo of a American Indian Brave. They should have just taken something from local history and call them e.g. the Algonquins, or some other tribe.

If you spent much time in the DC area you'd know there was far more involved in the Washington Redskin name change than mere political correctness. Also this isn't the first time this has happened to a DC sports team.

I have not been in DC in decades and I was not there for that long. But it does not surprise me, like many things in DC, many secrets, intrigues, 50 shades of grey at least, etc., etc.,.

A friend of mine worked in an office in DC decades ago. May or may not have has something to do with Indian affairs, etc. ? The many Americans Indians that worked most it appeared were big Redskins fans. They at times would wear shirts, hats, put up posters, etc., of Washington Redskins.

But when someone they referred to as the "Big Chief" came by for a visit. They put all that Redskin stuff away. Until he ended his visit and was long gone. Then it all went back up etc.

So ?

@Legion 4

My experience has been that the entire range of the political "spectrum" has people who distort facts to "improve" their arguments. When you apply a blanket label of "Marxist" to reasonable efforts improve the lot of the USA middle class, you are pushing your own brand of distortion.

WRT to history, I was born in 1951, and when young was taught what was often a "sanitized" version of American history. So a lot of what you may call "revisionism" is actually IMHO an improvement if the revisions correspond more closely to the facts, regardless of how that hurts our sensibilities. The facts should rule, no matter what.

MH

Agree with most of what you say. And I was born in '56. But that being said Facts should rule, but again we know that always does not happen.

E.g. I think Mark Twain said something like. "If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

And he said that a long time ago …

I was annoyed at the Redskins name change although I understood the reasons. A lot of the heat was generated by the Owner's attitude.

Its his doing that they became "the football team" – his idea of making a point.

There were any number of suggestions for an alternative, with people posting some really good ideas on line. There was a great Wolf's Head logo for a Washington Wolves that I particularly liked.

Hey Ho!

Nothing is on the level today; nor has it been for a LONG time.

B

Oh ! I do like the Washington Wolves !!!

Nothing is on the level today; nor has it been for a LONG time.

Very much agree and it probably won't be otherwise for a very long time … if ever …

As it is written:

There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:10

Amen to that !

There was a scene in the movie Tarus Bulba where Yul Brenner tells Tony Curtis something to the effect of
"You were both wrong. And you were both right."

I feel the same way about the ACW.
The South wasn't 100% wrong and the North wasn't 100% right.

And PS my grandmother's grandfather fought with the Army of the Potomac from Bull Run to Appomattox.

Interesting … I remember that movie from long ago.

Well that must be a matter of pride for him fighting in the ACW.