"Paperlgrün (again)" Topic

On another thread, Von Winterfeldt linked to this really useful document link and his exhotation to "see facing colours".

Look at pp 114 and 143 (pp 92 and 121 of the scan) for IR10 Anton Mittrowski and IR26 Hohenlohe.

IR10

IR26

Both have the dreaded Paperlgrün facings. Neither of them look especially disgustingly vomit yellow. In fact IR 26 looks decidedly bright green, much more like the way wargamers have traditionally painted their 4th (Hessen Homburg) Hussars.

It makes me wonder if the yellowish colour is the result of time. I know there are other contemporary colour swatches that do show the more unappealing washed out colour, but is this a product of aging? I would have thought a bright green might age to a palish yellow-grey, but a pale yellow-grey wouldn't age to bright green. Maybe a green more like the colour of a parrot (Palerl) is more accurate after all. I don't have the Hessen Homburg hussars, IR10, IR26 or any other unit needing this colour but I find this interesting, and you never know, one day I might want to paint one of them.

Cheers,
John

John,
Possibly consult more populous discussion of artworks related to flora and fauna of 18-19thC like Darwin, Banks, Audubon etc. than limited range of 'militaria'.

Through family interests I've seen some magnificent old volumes, limited edition prints (like 10 copies of a 300 page book) that have outstanding colours retained after 150-300 years!

Van Gogh's Fading Colors Inspire Scientific Inquiry

BOTANICAL ART & ARTISTS

10+ Famous Watercolor Artists Who Continue to Influence Painting.

[EDIT 3:00]
Add:
deepfriedhappymice.com/html/ref_sy_aus_colors_green.html

header page>>
link

regards
d

The 1815 colour chart for the Austrian Army
IR10 (Reisky) and IR26 (Prinz von Oranien)
the facing colour is definitely green, the shade reminds me of the skin of a granny smith apple. link

The 1807 colour chart for the army has
IR10 (Mittrovsky) and IR26 (Hohenlohe-Bartenstein) again with green facings, shade look like a light version of the old humbrol grass green. link

The 1806 Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée has
IR10 (Anspach) and IR26 (Hohenlohe-Bartenstein) – the colours have obviously changed a bit with time – IR10 looks a sludgy green while IR26 looks a slightly yellowish shade of the granny smith green.

The 1802 Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée has
IR10 (Anspach) and IR26 (Hohenlohe-Bartenstein) – the colours have obviously changed a bit with time as both look sludgy green.

I have additional facing charts, seemingly I have upload problems, but those in the Almanach could of course have aged due to paper aging, but I did see those also as originals and those colours were coloured in with water colours, so to achieve a good hue of the designated colour.

Then of course one has to consider how the scan was performed, lighting etc. and also that most likely on each scree the green will look a bit different, but by and large it gives us a "trend" how the colour did look like.

@vW – all very good points. Just looking at Geschichte und bildliche Darstellung der Regimenter des Erzhauses Oesterreich Wien: Reilly,1796 – colour looks very similar to the old Humbrol grass green… link

@Prince of Essling and John Edmundson, in case you state your e mail addresses I could send you further colour charts.

Paperlgrün in my view a light yellowish green.

Plates sent from von W.

Thanks for the offer von Winterfeldt. My email address is johnedmundson15@yahoo.com – I'd like to see as much evidence as I can on this. I can easily accept the idea of a yellowish green, even if some of the charts suggest a greener green. What I find less convincing is arguments for a sickly grey, along the lines of Vallejo Game Color Dead Flesh,

which I have seen suggested before.

ok there Michael did already published the plates here I don't have to send them directly, I agree I wouldn't use dead flesh for Papperlgrün, the Austrians would have called it Leichengrün.

Ah, so they're the same ones. Thanks anyway. What year are they from?

Papperlgruen = Pappelgruen = Poplar Green, doesn't it? So looking at Austrian poplar trees should give an idea of the hue.

>>Paperlgrün in my view a light yellowish green.

WHich as a signed up Mediterranean and 'Middle' Eastern food afficianado, I'd happily call- olive!

Not drab or any of those garbage fake colours. Just Olive.
d

Papperlgrün isn't Pappelgrün has nothing to do with poplar trees.

The tablaus are 1780 and 1788

"Papperlgruen = Pappelgruen = Poplar Green, doesn't it? So looking at Austrian poplar trees should give an idea of the hue."

No. Pappelgrün is poplar green. Paperlgrün is parrot green, from an old Vienna dialect word for parrot. So they are different colours.

Thanks, John, vonW – I thought the Viennese parrot was unlikely and poplar more probable, but I see the dialect word does exist and is venerable. I stand corrected. Thanks!

Chris

Incidentally, I wasn't the first to suggest Pappelgruen:
link

I've never heard of a European 'parrot'- so exactly what was it describing??
(*- hidden ornithological knowledge and interests!)
d+*doughnut*

I guess parrots were known about as cage birds. Perhaps that partly explains why there's so much confusion about the colour . . .

Cheers,
John

"Paperl" = "Papagei" seems to have been a generic denomination, just like "parrot" in English.

link

A German encyclopedia of 1773 lists six classes of parrots:

link

It says that ancient Greeks and Romans knew but one kind of parrots: green with red necklace. Maybe this is the rose-ringed parakeet (Psittacula krameri):