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"1809 Austrians WIP" Topic


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MarbotsChasseurs04 Dec 2020 5:01 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

As I am finishing up the French 4th Division, so I wanted to start on the Austrians. This is a WIP of the Austrians so far. Any comments about changes are welcomed. Can anyone give me some references on the drummers, the symbol inside the shoulder wings, and if the drummers had lace on their collar and cuffs. I have seen some with and some without. Also, any good references for NCO's would be great as well.

picture

Thank you,
Michael

John Edmundson04 Dec 2020 5:48 p.m. PST

Hollins' Osprey is good.

Drummers wings had a white rosette. They sometimes had lace on collar and cuffs but not always – they weren't really meant to. The helmet would often, but not always, have a red crest and sometimes a feather plume. The drummers also often wore their backpacks slung on the hip rather than on their backs.

Cheers,
John

von Winterfeldt04 Dec 2020 11:42 p.m. PST

The drummers also often wore their backpacks slung on the hip rather than on their backs.

On what source do you base this opinion?

I am only aware of secondary ones, such as Heer and Tradition plate.

I was under the impression that when the Austrians changed to the pack to be worn on the back, in 1798 (which would take some time to implement) also the drummers did this – but I may be very wrong on this.

In case to find out more about the Austrian Army I recommend to visit

link

An immense amount of detailed information can be found, take some food and drink at the ready because you can spend easily hours of hours looking at those prints.

grenadier corporal05 Dec 2020 1:27 a.m. PST

Never seen red crests or feathers for INFANTRY drummers (cavalry trumpeters had red-crested helmets).
Can't give hard evidence for drummers' backpacks worn en bandelier right now – but I can't remember any primary source for the contrary.
Privates had bayonets only. NCOs had sabres, too (like all grenadiers), with yellow/black swordl-knots, and canes and leather gloves; they carried the musket "im rechten Arm"(right hand around the trigger guard).

MarbotsChasseurs05 Dec 2020 6:03 a.m. PST

Thank you everyone for the comments. I made changes with the swords and will only put a sword on NCO's and grenadiers. von W, that website is a HUGE amount of information. I will need to take some time and look it over for sure. I am going to add some I found. Interesting paintings of bands as well drummers.

picture

Regimental bands.
picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

Fred Mills05 Dec 2020 8:54 a.m. PST

Hi M/C, are you placing these images on your blog? I saw no update since the 27 November one of the 72e Ligne. Please let me know if you are posting them someplace else for me to bookmark.

Really terrific, useful work. Much appreciated!!

MarbotsChasseurs05 Dec 2020 10:15 a.m. PST

Fred,

I need to finish the 105e Ligne, which should be done this weekend, as not a ton to report. The last post in the 4th Division will be on the General Saint-Hilaire, Lorencez, and de Stabenrath.

At the moment I am finding Austrian regimental histories, uniforms, and working on these plates. I have to make a flag, which is a daunting task. I already made the border for the flag and pole that turned out well I think. Below, is the changes I made due to the information provided.

picture

Thank you for the help,
Michael

von Winterfeldt05 Dec 2020 12:19 p.m. PST

hm, I have to send you some information about the colours

aka flags

John Edmundson05 Dec 2020 12:55 p.m. PST

For the wearing of the backpack I'm relying on Hollins, who says "Equipment included a leather apron on the right thigh, a sabre, and a knapsack on a shoulder belt in pre-1798 style." I don't know his source for this. He also refers to the red crest on some musicians' helmets and notes that there were numerous exceptions to regulation, especially throughout 1814-15 "but even earlier . . . . Most surprisingly (because their Inhaber was Archduke Charles, the strictest enforcer of regulations) the drummers of the 3rd Regt. had lace on the jacket breast, one version showing not only tassel-ended loops of sky blue and white, but also the 1798 helmet with a sky-blue-over-white crest."

He notes other exceptions too – some wearing red or blue coats, the aforementioned red helmet crest, various lace patterns and some regiments (he notes IR30 and IR50) dressing their drummers in Turkish costume. But he also says most drummers were not dressed radically differently from the rank and file.

Regards,
John

Fred Mills05 Dec 2020 3:06 p.m. PST

Thank you for the information, M/C. Superb work.

MarbotsChasseurs06 Dec 2020 7:00 a.m. PST

An update on the sapeur and NCO. The sapeur I still need to make a color change to his apron, add two pockets, and ax case. Would the sapeurs wear a beard like the french? Can anyone tell me what button the NCOs cane loops around? Also, added the top of the flag with an F I and redid the pole.

link

von Winterfeldt06 Dec 2020 7:12 a.m. PST

Thanks for the information John Edmundson.

Yes there is a sometimes big differences between regimental drummers and musicians, seemingly sometimes within the same band

url=https://postimages.org/]

url=https://postimages.org/]

url=https://postimages.org/]

MarbotsChasseurs06 Dec 2020 7:17 a.m. PST

von W,

That painting of the Grenadier sapeurs is very helpful! I will make a change to a beard.

von Winterfeldt06 Dec 2020 12:10 p.m. PST

another interesting observation, maybe for parade, the top of the apron is not buttoned to the coat hand is hanging down,

grenadier corporal07 Dec 2020 9:30 a.m. PST

"Can anyone tell me what button the NCOs cane loops around?"
Third down fom collar.

MarbotsChasseurs07 Dec 2020 9:51 a.m. PST

Grenadier Corporal,

Thank you. Since the third button is not showing on the NCO, should I let it hang from his chest? on his left.

grenadier corporal09 Dec 2020 5:52 a.m. PST

Couldn't find a good picture.
Tuck the cane between the body and the sabre/bayonet bandelier, the tip coming to about shoulder height protruding slightly forward The cane strap undrt all other straps, third button.
Hanging down the chest the cane would make you struggle fast.

MarbotsChasseurs09 Dec 2020 6:42 a.m. PST

Grenadier Corporal,

I appreciate the feedback. Below is the WIP of the Austrians so far. Need to change the artilleryman's plume and will redo the cane. I found an image of the cane that shows what you describe I believe.

picture

picture

von Winterfeldt09 Dec 2020 3:28 p.m. PST

I see you did two different kinds of shakos for Grenzer and Linie regiments, is there any reasons for that in 1809?

MarbotsChasseurs09 Dec 2020 3:36 p.m. PST

Von W,

I used these two but just noticed the first is for 1814. From the pictures, it seems the officers have different shakos than the rank and file? If I am incorrect I will make the change.

picture

picture

and just found this picture

picture

grenadier corporal10 Dec 2020 2:58 a.m. PST

The Knötel colour bearer gives a good impression of the tucked cane.
Chest straps under the bandeliers, at least under the cartridge box one.
Grenzer at first had Klobuks (the conical ones), later getting the regular infantry ones. The picture from the regimental history is post-Napoleonic.

MarbotsChasseurs10 Dec 2020 5:51 a.m. PST

Grenadier Corporal,

Thank you for the information. So I will stick with the Klobuks for 1809 for the Grenzers. This is the website I used for information on Grenzer regiments. link I made the changes with the traps and worked on moving the cane, but not sure I can put make it look right going under the arm.

Do you know where I can find the regimental history for the Grenzregiment n. 9 Petrovaradin (Peterwardein) and Archduke Karl Legion? At the moment I have these below who fought at Thann or Dunzling.

Geschichte des k. k. Infanterie-Regiments Nr. 18, Constantin Großfürst von Rußland
Geschichte des K.K. Linien-Infanterie-Regiments Erzherzog Wilhelm No. 12.
Geschichte des kaiserl. königl. Erzherzog Ferdinand dritten Husaren-Regiments
Geschichte des k. u. k. Infanterie-Regimentes Feldmarschall Carl Joseph Graf Clerfayt de Croix (Nr 9)
Geschichte des Husaren-Regimentes Nr. 10, Friedrich Wilhelm III
Geschichte des k. u. k. Hussaren-regimentes nr. 3
Geschichte des k.k. Dragoner-regimentes Alfred Fürst zu Windisch-Graetz nr. 14

von Winterfeldt10 Dec 2020 8:54 a.m. PST

I cannot see that the Klobuk was still worn in 1809 – it was worn in the Revolutionary Wars, but in my opinion the Grenzer did wear the usual shako.

Those above sources from Osprey or Bernard Coppens – are secondary ones, I would hope to see primary sources on that subject,

grenadier corporal11 Dec 2020 1:57 a.m. PST

The Vienna Kriegsarchiv could have even Grenzer regimental histories, but I don't think they are online available.
Grenzer uniforms are even more enigmatic than others …
If you choose one possible option nobody will be able t prove you wrong.

von Winterfeldt11 Dec 2020 6:05 a.m. PST

We mustn't allow that moder prints shape our vision of a Klobuk or shako, those above look too modern for my eyes.

Here an original Klobuk

url=https://postimg.cc/64h39wnt]

1809andallthat11 Dec 2020 7:01 a.m. PST

Michael

Thanks for these – really interesting.

I had a quick glance through the regimental history of IR 12 (known as Manfredini in 1809) and found this passage on p478

"1808 auf 1809 erhielt die Infanterie , mit Ausnahme der Grenadiere , statt der Helme Czakos zur Kopfbedeckung . Dieselben waren ziem lich hoch , oben breiter als unten , mit Augen – und Nacken Schirm und einer grossen Rose nebst Cocarde und Schlinge auf der vorderen Seite versehen".

My German is not great but does this suggest that the regiment began receiving the new shako in 1808? I have not previously seen any reference to IR 12 being in shakos in 1809 and as you are probably aware information on which German regiments were in shakos in 1809 is very scarce. If correct will mean me having to commission a new regiment as I already have IR 12 in helmets!

Also on the Grenzer, according to Hollins all of the jackets changed post 1809 so all Grenzers in the 1809 campaign should in white not brown. This is confirmed in the Militär-Almanach . The 1808 edition has all the regiments in white with the 1810 edition showing the Deutsch-Banat now in brown.

von Winterfeldt11 Dec 2020 8:48 a.m. PST

Indeed they received shakos, already some German units did wear the shako.

About the Grenzer uniforms, I see it the other way round, in the French Revolutionary Wars the regiments had white uniforms and did wear them on campaign, gradually in the Napoleonic Wars the brown tunic could be also worn in the field.

Thanks for the hint in the Militär Schematismus, I have to check on that when the official coat colour did change to brown.

I know one has to be carefull to judge according to battle paintings – like Lejeune showing usually later uniforms the same could have happened here as well, the storming of the church yard at Aspern

Strange postimage is not uploading any longer – in case I try it later, on that painting there is a German regiment with yellow facings and shako as well.

MarbotsChasseurs11 Dec 2020 8:51 a.m. PST

1809andallthat,

You are correct! I missed that page as I just focused on the battle, but interesting information for sure. This is a learning experience for me. I have found some great details about the battle from the regimental histories that make me question the French histories. The majority of the Austrian histories say the Austrians never fully penetrated the woods on the Teugen side, which is different than the Austrians waiting on the hill for the advancing 57e and later 3e Ligne that we find in the French reports. The whole paragraph from the regimental history has some great details. Thank you!

In der Adjustirung , Ausrüstung und Bewaffnung ging keine wesentliche Aenderung vor sich . Die Beklei dung einiger Primaplanisten wurde 1802 und 1805 , jene der Fouriere aber 1808 geregelt . 1808 auf 1809 erhielt die Infanterie , mit Ausnahme der Grenadiere , statt der Helme Czakos zur Kopfbedeckung . Dieselben waren ziem lich hoch , oben breiter als unten , mit Augen – und Nacken Schirm und einer grossen Rose nebst Cocarde und Schlinge auf der vorderen Seite versehen . Die Rock Schössen wurden vorn ausgeschnitten , so dass deren umgeschlagene Enden nicht mehr seitwärts , sondern rückwärts herabhingen . Die Offiziere erhielten Hüte mit zweiseitig aufgeschlagener Krempe , dann Röcke mit langen ebenfalls vorn ausgeschnittenen Schössen . Mannschaft und Offiziere behielten kurze Hosen und Kamaschen .

I will keep the Grenzer in white and the shako seems to be up in the air right now for the Grenzer and a possibility for the IR 12? Do you have the Militär-Almanach online?

von Winterfeldt11 Dec 2020 9:24 a.m. PST

for 1810 in colour – see facing colours

link

Indeed only Grenzer Nr. 12 are with brown coats

von Winterfeldt11 Dec 2020 9:30 a.m. PST

Also for 1808

link

in colour as well

MarbotsChasseurs11 Dec 2020 9:53 a.m. PST

A picture von Winterfeldt sent me of Austrians storming Aspern Church. As von W mentioned above, Schakos for all Austrian troops in this painting. Does anyone notice the Austrian officers wearing pants with buttons down the sides similar to these pants?


von Winterfeldt11 Dec 2020 10:42 a.m. PST

The Austrian officers in the dark grey Überrock as well, and also notice the rolled great coat across the shoulder.

MarbotsChasseurs11 Dec 2020 10:54 a.m. PST

It took me a while to figure out where the color of the facings was, but here are the Peterwardein Grenzer n.9

picture

picture

This is great stuff! von W. would the greatcoat rest on the right shoulder and go down to the left side like this one I made? Also, Grenadier Corporal, how does the cane placement look on the NCO?

MarbotsChasseurs11 Dec 2020 2:49 p.m. PST

I worked on a German officer wearing a Schako. No regiment in particular just wanted feedback on his coat (Überrock) look and color.

picture

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP11 Dec 2020 4:08 p.m. PST

>>it seems the officers have different shakos than the rank and file?

That's exactly as Perrys WF range presented them- so its a 'corroborating' factoid if nothing more… d

Some extra (if dated) data:
Austrian Regular Infantry
An old source with naive illustrations.


Issues:-
1- Missing feldzeichen on headgear
2- Drummers 'swallow' patch lace should be curved 'rose' petals nearly touching outer edges top and bottom, with a central 'tight' embelleshment of same lace (damned if I can find a clear close up):
TMP link

picture
.
3- Shoulder straps, white piped facing, or all facing? When or even did it change?
regards
dcup(2nd)

La Belle Ruffian Supporting Member of TMP11 Dec 2020 4:27 p.m. PST

MarbotsChasseurs, this is first rate work, much appreciated. I only wish my miniature and painting ability/energy were able to benefit as much as some of the figures we see here.

I'm intending heading to Austria next year so there are a few more sites to see I think.

MarbotsChasseurs11 Dec 2020 5:31 p.m. PST

Dave,

Oak leaves are being worked on as well as the rose. I don't know what program Mr. Cabaret used to make these, but it sure isn't Paint.

I have seen white piped, just the plain facing color, and white piped in facing color for shoulder straps. von W sent me a good one showing piped white with facing color as seen below.

picture

grenadier corporal12 Dec 2020 1:35 a.m. PST

@ shoulderstraps: the pcture above is probably from the Schmideder-Blätter – drawn samples for production.
BUT: after dealing with this question for years on end I still haven't found THE answer. Colloredo- and Carl-Grenadiers (Austrian reenactors) have chosen to do them facing-coloured piped white.

The cane should be BETWEEN body and bandelier.
The yellow item on the left a little above the knee – the sabre portepee? If so than it should be in the height of the sabre hilt.

von Winterfeldt12 Dec 2020 4:21 a.m. PST

that from the above is from the 1767 regulations, Schmideder confirms coloured shoulder straps piped white, this would be my option as well.

About the officer, he looks quite nice, but I would also include a version of buttoned trousers, as can be seen on the Aspern print as well.

MarbotsChasseurs12 Dec 2020 6:20 a.m. PST

Von W.

Are the trousers grey or black? This watercolor by Johann Adam Klein depicts a lighter grey than the painting.

picture

I worked on the helmet of the German officer based on the plate below. The pistol looks like it should go across the right shoulder down to the left hip.

picture

picture

von Winterfeldt12 Dec 2020 11:56 a.m. PST

Be aware that those Molo prints are showing the 1798 uniforms, this may well have change in 1809 a bit, as in cut of cloth and style of helmet.

We would have to look at prints or officers portrait's of 1809 ish – to learn more about the out look then.

MarbotsChasseurs12 Dec 2020 12:09 p.m. PST

von W,

These are the only two portraits I have. The one you sent me below, but I believe both are early than in 1809. If anyone has a picture of the officer's helmet, I would be grateful!

picture

and Colonel Andreas von Lind Austrian 58th Regiment 1804-1806

picture

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2020 12:51 p.m. PST

I note also, that in several of these contemporary portraits that the caterpillar colours are shown reversed to how we have been given in modern books- that is the 'gold' representing the yellow colour of troops, is on the bottom, and black above.
Is there still a streak of other colour on the crown of the caterpillar?
d

Supreme Littleness Designs13 Dec 2020 10:18 a.m. PST

Michael,

Great work!

Regarding the Aspern church illustration, the only 'German' regiment with emperor yellow facings was on the other side of the battlefield. The rather simplified church has been turned 90 degrees to the 'manse' as to how it actually is. There is also a very interesting flag amidst the French troops. Perhaps to make the feat of attacking the churchyard more heroic the wall is particularly substantial – but I really like the detail of the men (of both sides) finding a way of getting over it!

It would be difficult not to doubt many of the other features of the artist's work.

Michael

von Winterfeldt13 Dec 2020 12:42 p.m. PST

Yet the officers are very convincingly depicted, also in the background the mounted officer with hat, pike grey interims coat and the officer's saddle cloth.

Supreme Littleness Designs14 Dec 2020 4:24 a.m. PST

So we might speculate that the artist was familiar with certain Austrian uniforms of a certain period but never visited the battlefield and did not have particular knowledge of French uniforms or standards.

1809andallthat14 Dec 2020 9:11 a.m. PST

Michael

A couple of comments on the officers. I would make the Überrock dark-grey rather than black. I have seen references to a range of colours from mid-grey to dark grey, almost black. I would also give it cuffs of the facing colour (the Klein picture shows this I think) although no cuffs is also an option.

I would also do a version of the officer in Uniformrock. White coat, of course, with facing coloured collar and cuffs and turnbacks either facing colour or white.

MarbotsChasseurs14 Dec 2020 11:52 a.m. PST

1809andallthat,

I looked through Paint, and it shows a dark grey hue instead of black. However, I will try and see if I can lighten the color. I am working on the officer in a white coat. As you said, I have seen pictures of both white and facing colors and will include both.

MarbotsChasseurs15 Dec 2020 8:48 p.m. PST

Not sure if this has been shown before here, but I just found this painting of Archduke Charles at Aspern-Essling. Very similar paintings of the same event.

picture

picture

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP17 Dec 2020 1:45 p.m. PST

Michael
Paintings aren't photographs, and they aren't proof- unless validated by sources used perhaps. That top one particularly suspect, as those over size 'caterpillars' look like Bavarians helm or Russian Dragoon types of later years.

Black wasn't a 'colour' in officer attire in all my research on K-K; and using a limited colour spectrum programme like Paint is just asking for trouble.

In the second, well that cuirassier lying injured is a giant!- his head reaches the waist of a passing gemeiner.
All best, d

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