"Opinions sought over these Austrian standards." Topic

So hopefully this will have worked . . .

I've taken flags I found on 'warflag' and used them as the basis of some less standard Austrian flags of the period. I don't think I'm breaching copyright by putting this photo of my modification of someone else's work as reading the site didn't suggest a problem to me. If I am, my apologies and I'll take it down.

Most still need tidy-ups around the edges but I thought I'd get feedback on the basics in the mean time. I'd be interested in people's comments on some specific questions that I still have. I realise some of this is purely speculative as in some cases the flags no longer exist – are so damaged as to be no longer available to view, faded beyond reliable colour identification, or survive only in cryptic description:

Specifically,
IR16 Lusignan (different flame arrangement (yellow facing in, red, black, white facing out)

IR32 Esterhazy – the elusive blue version of the 1792 standard. I tried to get a blue shade close to the facing colour as interpreted by "Loki" at:

link

I didn't want it too bright but wonder if I've gone for something a bit too grey.

Carniola Landwehr: Ordinärfahne on the obverse, blue Krain (Carniola) eagle against a gold/yellow field on the reverse. I've cloned the same yellow as the background. The eagle is one I found on the net, but with the crescent changed to all 'gold', rather than the red and gold chequerboard pattern from earlier and later. There are other, more elaborate eagles on line but none I could find specifically from the Napoleonic period. Also, would the flaming border still be present. I depicted it without.

Moravian Freikorps (not 1st battalion – I haven't done that yet): Same arangement as for Carniola, with Moravian chequered eagle (lifted from the web) on a blue field. Is the blue too bright? It seemed quite bright on images I could see that weren't too damaged to be sure. Also, again, flames or no flames.

Finally, 2 versions of the EHK 2nd battalion. This is the most pressing for me as I've painted it and it's awaiting its standard . . . It's described as yellow over blue, 5 stripes with doppeladler on both sides. I've used the doppeladler from the ordinärfahne but I don't know if this is correct. Should it be a plainer eagle without all the heraldic paraphernalia? Also, the colours – one I went for a brighter blue and yellow. The other I cloned the yellow and blue from the standard and IR32 ordinärfahnen. (I don't know why the colour looks faded in this photo. I'll experiment with that.) Any thoughts on which, if either, is better?

I've enjoyed pottering around with these so if they are OK, I'll gradually keep playing around with others for other Landwehr, the Insurrectio, Freikorp etc, and if I can find out any other "exceptions" in the infantry or cavalry, maybe them too. (Evidently the cavalry were more inclined to hang onto older standards; none for the hussars though . . .)

Thanks for your time. Now to see if the picture loads :-)

Interesting stuff! I wasn't aware there was a known pattern for the 2nd battalion of the EzK Legion! I woukld think dark blue unless the source suggests something else.

Having done flags for many of the Landwehr, Insurrectio, etc., myself, for which only limited information exists, I did my Moravian flag much like yours. However, I suspect that the reverse was more likely the "checkered chicken" of Moravia on a large blue shield, field color pretty much your choice, likely a border of flames in some combination of blue, yellow, and/or red, in part depending upon the field color.

I should have cited "blundersonthedanube" as a source – of both inspiration and evidence! So thank you profusely for your pioneering work on this fascinating subject. Also, note that I can't hand paint them like you did. I can only copy and paste and tweak and tinker . . . I'm a midget in the presence of giants when it comes to anything wargaming.

The updates you added for the ones you did (eg the Carniola Landwehr having a yellow field) I learned from your page. Actually, you also quote Dave Hollins "The 2nd battalion [EHK Legion] [flag] had yellow over blue 5 stripes with a black Doppeladler and I think it was the 4th, which had the red flag with the city arms [as depicted] in MAA299." That's where I found that information, although I think I've seen it elsewhere (maybe here on TMP) as well. But I'd probably have forgotten too if it was 10 years ago . . .

Cheers,
John

Thanks, John. Some of mine are hand painted, some printed and then enhanced by "color by numbers" painting! :-)

The varied uniforms and the opportunity for a lot of poetic license make the Landwehr and Volunteers/Erzherzog Karl Legion fun to collect and paint; yet another reason for enjoying the 1809 campaign!

Having started with 1809 on the Danube (Aspern-Essling: Hohenzollern-Hechingen's 2nd Korps) – I was being disciplined and choosing a formation comprised mostly of 'German'regiments rather than end up with an Austrian army comprised of Hungarians, Grenz, Jäger and no Germans (I do get two Jäger battalions and the 2nd EHK in the avant Garde), I'm now increasingly intrigued by the Italian campaign; I feel a bit sorry for my almost namesake EH Johan, who, tactically, who I think wasn't as bad as history has remembered him. Still, I can substitute battalion for batallion without having to build the whole K und K, and as you say, the Landwehr, Freiwillige etc are such good fun! My main problem is the glacial progress of it all . . .

The "Italian" campaign is very interesting. Sacile, The battle on the Piave, and Raab all make great wargames. Tarvis, St Michael, Gsiopic, and Graz all make interesting games as well [and some require a lot of Landwehr, too! :-) ]

My Napoleonic Austrian Army presently has about 1500 figures, if you include the Tirolese… and I have another 300 more infantry figures primed and ready to paint!

I agree. Gospic is fascinating as a small scale encounter. I first came across it on the wargamerabbit site. I'd like to try St Michael with Jellacic not sending away the cavalry etc.

Re the Moravians, does this look more credible in your opinion?

Looks good, but I'd shrink the shield about 25%.

Thanks. Am I getting closer now?

John

Yes; in reality the shield would probably be considerably smaller still, but I like the bigger, bold look like this.

Here's a second round:
I've done:

EHKL 1st (Leib) Battalion: based on the photo from Prague Castle (it's not very clear) and Dave Hollins' description.

EHKL 2nd Battalion: – fixed the colours.

EHKL 3rd – 6th Bttn: I don't know. Maybe a standard Ordinärfahne on one side and a simpler "lion in shield" on yellow on the other, with no scrolls. Any better ideas?

Moravian Freiwillige Leib Bttn: (again based on the photo from Prague).

Moravian Freiwillige 2nd and 3rd Bttn: shrank the heraldry as recommended by Gonzalvo.

Of course it's just occurred to me now that the EHKL flags, being the old 1800 Legion standards, would be 1792 pattern, not 1806, so I'll have to fix that.

Cheers,
John

John

I have a better photo of the flag from Prague castle but have no way of posting it here. Let me know of you would like me to send it to you.

Jim

That would be brilliant Jim. I set up an Imgur account to post mine, which was simple once I realised it had to be a .jpg, not the .xcf that GIMP produces. If you'd rather though, you could email me to johnedmundson15@yahoo.com

I was sure there must be a better picture out there somewhere, given that the thing is still, as far as I know, hanging up in a castle somewhere in Prague.

Much appreciated,
John

John

Just sent you pictures of the flag.

On the other EHKL flags I seen to recall reading somewhere that Dave Hollins thought the flag illustrated in MAA299 (the red one) belonged to the 4th Battalion?

Jim

Here's the latest iteration (EHKL Leibstandarte redone based on '1809andallthat' sending me a couple of very useful photos:

And here's my EHKL 2nd battalion carrying it's newly printed standard. Obviously none of my troops have their bases done yet . . .

Cheers,
John

Maybe of interest

Dave Hollins in the UK has kindly provided the results of his research into Austrian infantry flags I present the information here as received:

My main source for this was F. Kaindl: Von den gemalten zu den gewebten Feldzeichen (Schriften des Heeresgeschichtlich esmuseum in Wien 1969 Vol4 pp.39-49). You are right to say each battalion carried two flags, the 1st carrying a Leib and an Ordinar, the others carrying two Ordinar. The pattern is the 1780 pattern of Joseph II, which picked up the full Habsburg coat of arms and really expressed his policy of relying on the Austrian resources and not the Holy Roman Empire's. It only changed in that the Buchstaben (initials) got a bar through them and J became F. An Imperial Decision of 22nd June 1805 reduced the flags to one per battalion, the Grenadier battalion of each regiment under the Mack changes carrying the Leibfahne, as it was the senior battalion, the others having one Ordinarfahne each. This changed back to the old system when the army reverted to its old organisation at that stage – ie; Leibfahne plus one Ordinar for the 1st (Leib) Battalion, two Ordinars for the others. Then it all changed again in 1808 to one flag per battallion again. Nevertheless, aside from 1805, the Grenadier battalions which only formed up in wartime just picked up one spare Ordinarfahne, usually but not necessarily from the senior parent regiment depot. Only in 1805, when each regiment had its own Grenadier battalion as the senior unit did Grenadiers carry a Leibfahne. This rotating leibfahne is a myth. The Jaeger battalions never carried flags and the Landwehr seem to have had spare Ordinarfahne, aside from the ones issued in Inner Austria. The Grenzers used the usual system, except that after 1807, all battalions appear to have carried one Ordinarfahne. The so-called 1804 pattern standard was issued under a patent of 11th August 1804, but the production order only went through on 28th March 1805. It cannot be established how many were actually made. However, it appears that only a couple were made – one of which is in the HGM in very good condition. Two new flags were presented to IR4 Deutschmeister in June 1806 before the 1806 pattern was decreed, although one of these was probably a new Leibfahne to replace the one lost in 1805. IR4 were the regiment based in Vienna, so they may have got a yellow 1804 pattern, but it doesn't appear that any others were issued.