"Russian Warship Admiral Vinogradov Threatens To Ram US" Topic

…Warship ‘John McCain' If It Does Not Leave Russian Waters

"Russia's Defense Ministry says a U.S. Navy destroyer has left Russian waters in the Far East after being warned it might be rammed.

The ministry said in a statement that the USS John S. McCain ventured 2 kilometers into Russian territorial waters on November 24 in the Peter the Great Gulf, near the eastern Russian port city of Vladivostok, before turning back after receiving a warning from the Admiral Vinogradov vessel.

"The Pacific Fleet's Admiral Vinogradov anti-submarine destroyer used an international communication channel to warn the foreign vessel that such actions were unacceptable and the violator could be driven out of the country's territorial waters in a ramming maneuver…"

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Amicalement
Armand

Meh, sounds like normal "business" for both parties involved when both assert their understanding of international maritime law. The US recognizes the internationally accepted 12nm treaty limit for national maritime boundaries. Russia violated that norm and unilaterally extended it's national maritime boundaries.

The US said, nope, this is still international waters…and sailed on through.

BEIRUT, LEBANON (3:00 P.M.) – The American 7th Fleet announced that Washington does not recognize the Russian maritime borders in the Gulf of Peter the Great in the Sea of ​​Japan near the city of Vladivostok, after a U.S. destroyer violated these borders today.

This came in response to the Russian Defense Ministry's announcement that the anti-submarine ship "Admiral Vinogradov" prevented the American destroyer "John McCain" from violating Russia's borders in the waters of the Peter the Great Bay on Tuesday morning.

The command of the American 7th Fleet said in a statement that the destroyer John McCain was carrying out an operation to ensure freedom of navigation in the Peter the Great Bay.

They added: "By implementing this process to ensure freedom of navigation, the United States has demonstrated that these waters are not the territorial sea of ​​Russia, and that the United States does not agree with Russia's statement that the Peter the Great Bay is a historic bay, according to international law."

The statement claimed that the system, according to which the bay is considered part of Russian territorial waters, was declared by the authorities of the Soviet Union in 1984.

It is reported that the area of ​​responsibility of the U.S. Seventh Fleet includes the western Pacific and eastern Indian Ocean.

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Yes the Russians have been playing chicken with the USN and USAF for a while now.

It's a tradition!

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Well, that would be an act of war, so the aggrieved party could launch SSMs, or fire other weapons, though I doubt they will.

Yes, the Russkis have been playing "bumper boats" with the USN since the 1950s. Used to happen quite a bit in the Med. back in the day.

Just looking at other threads there on China and Pacific I'd be asking a question – what was the purpose of John Mccain mission in the same region? We all know the game, but it will be yet another reminder to Russia who is their opponent in the region.
Same week US ship was testing the patience/limits in Black Sea and there was a nice operation of airlifting several MBL from Germany, bringing them to Romania and launching missiles in the direction of Crimea.
There has to be some reasoning behind all this, right?

That's an easy one, Barin1, failing to challenge a false claim of internal waters which is is violation of internationally accepted limits (as was the case here, it seems), eventually leads international courts to allow the claim. US and other Western powers do this all the time. It's why the Black Sea is still international waters outside of 12 nautical miles. Baltic Sea, too, IIRC.

I understand the legal part, but if USA is really this concerned about freedom of the seas, why it is so rarely challenging artificial Chinese islands away from their mainland? Why I have a feeling that inspite of everything, you know that Russia will not attack USF ship but you're not this sure about Chinese?
And what will your press will make if we start firing missiles from Cuba into the direction of Florida?

Just out of curiosity as I don't know, but does the USN allow Russian ships to sail in the northern part of the Gulf of Mexico or the Gulf of Alaska?

USA is really this concerned about freedom of the seas, why it is so rarely challenging artificial Chinese islands away from their mainland? Why I have a feeling that inspite of everything, you know that Russia will not attack USF ship but you're not this sure about Chinese?

Because the US never left the original Cold War. Russia could be the most liberal democratic country on the planet that makes Switzerland look like Nazi Germany, and the Americans would still look for ways to aggravate the Russians.

I think the American foreign and military institutions' Russian fantasy involves it being nuked off the face of the planet and sinking under the seas.

Meanwhile the Chinese are just allowed to do whatever they please. The US was convinced they would be another Japan or South Korea or Taiwan and refused to acknowledge China was different.

Obama even censured US military officers from speaking out against Chinese military activities in the Pacific.

And as Hillary Clinton once said to Australian PM, Kevin Rudd, ""How do you deal toughly with your banker?""

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China openly holds $1.1 USD trillion of US debt. It also holds countless billions through other countries.

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That doesn't include other things the Chinese holds the US over a barrel of a gun such as export of rare earth minerals which the US needs for its tech sector (China has a near monopoly on these).

Thanks. now I don't have to type the same text myself.

I'll just add that poking the bear when tiger is planning to eat you in several years time might not be the best strategy ;)

Barin, the US and the west lost any concept of strategy when the cold war finished thus "ending" history. It has been incompetent bumbling along ever since.

arealdeadone sadly in some cases that is true and I agree … some times … But again. I'm a bit biased …

I have read several accounts of US and other naval ships doing freedom of the seas ops in the South China Sea in the recent past. So it's not just Russia. And yes, it is legal for Russian or Chinese naval ships to sail the Gulf of Mexico outside of the 12 mile limit. Of course, there are also fisheries enforcement zones off many nation's coasts. That's a whole other ball of wax!

arealdeadone sadly in some cases that is true and I agree … some times … But again. I'm a bit biased …

Here in Australia we would like the US to be a top reliable partner but the US has failed miserably when faced with a threat that is much greater to the Asia Pacific than Soviet Union ever was.

So whilst you bumble along with the Russians pretending its 1962, the Asian powerhouse of the global economy slips out of your hands.

And that is bad news for all of us.

the US to be a top reliable partner but the US has failed miserably when faced with a threat that is much greater to the Asia Pacific than Soviet Union ever was.

You mean the PRC/CCP … ? No one can control them at this point. As far as failing miserably … I don't see it that way … but again …I'm a bit biased …

You mean the PRC/CCP … ? No one can control them at this point.

The US can but it's too gutless and too driven by money.

That is why I don't regard the US as the most potent military on the planet – it's too scared to use it.

All that big giant military is is a money spinner for corrupted politicians, procurement officials and defence company shareholders.

As far as failing miserably … I don't see it that way … but again …I'm a bit biased …

Bias prevents one from realising their mistakes. It's clearly endemic in American foreign policy and defence circles.

The US can but it's too gutless and too driven by money.

That is why I don't regard the US as the most potent military on the planet – it's too scared to use it.

All that big giant military is is a money spinner for corrupted politicians, procurement officials and defence company shareholders.

So are you calling for total war ?

too scared to use it

There are a lot dead in many places in the Mid East, Africa and A'stan that would say otherwise. One "Academic" stated that since the US with it's allies has come in to the islamic world. He estimated about 4 million muslims have died directly or indirectly. I don't know if that number is true. But even if it half that … that's still a lot of dead.

Bias prevents one from realising their mistakes. It's clearly endemic in American foreign policy and defence circles.

But again I am biased … But I don't want to see WWIII or a US-Sino War …

So are you calling for total war ?

Not at all.

As the Russians, Iranians, North Koreans and Chinese keep proving time and time again, you can be aggressive and not start WWIII.

West is too scared to do anything proactive say babble about alliances and drawing pointless lines in the sand that get trampled on and occasionally playing whack a mole with the odd terrorist or placing sanctions on some Russian crony.

Thus the terms are dictated by China, Russia, Iran, Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and anyone else who have an actual set of cahones.

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And at some point if we keep capitulating to the Chinese or Russians, we'll be pushed into a corner where war is the only option left….or the west surrenders and becomes consigned to the dust bin of history.

Some of that makes sense … and I'll generally agree. But the USA is run in many cases of short sighted leadership, every 4-8 years. I think the PRC/CCP and even Putin play the long game …

And when it comes to Iran, every time they play chicken with the USN. We should turn their speed boats into splinters. And when they bomb US Forces in Iraq after we took out their top Gen, Suilimani. We should have turned all those locations into rubble. And yes in both situation many of their military/IRGC would have died. As well as some civilians. Again that is what happens in a conflict. No matter how much we try to avoid it.

Some of that makes sense … and I'll generally agree. But the USA is run in many cases of short sighted leadership, every 4-8 years. I think the PRC/CCP and even Putin play the long game

There is not much change in terms of foreign policy direction in the west regardless of leadership (in fact western democracies haven't changed overall policy in 40 years – its globalisation neoliberalism all the way baby even though it's not working).

In fact western policy is extremely difficult to shift. Note that up to now the policy direction towards China has been unchanged since Nixon's visit to China in 1972!

It has only been the last couple of years that there has been some sort of realisation that China isn't playing according to the script which was to let China do as it pleases.

And it seems that the US will probably go back to the 1972 script once the new administration kicks in! Already Biden is softening his stance on China back to his Obama era perspective. SE Asians are already worried about the US reverting to its old stance.

Same with Russia – the US never significantly changed its policy direction towards Russia after the fall of the USSR. Russia stayed the enemy regardless of what it was doing or how much it was near a failed state in the 1990s.

Same with Saudi Arabia – the policy here dates from the Eisenhower presidency. And as 9-11 proved, Saudis can murder thousands of Americans and the US will not change its direction. I suspect the Saudis could nuke a US city or three and it wouldn't change anything.

its globalisation neoliberalism all the way baby even though it's not working).

Yes I agree … And many of us don't want it to work. Those that want that have a very biased idea of how things work in reality. Pie in the sky, your ok I'm ok, unicorns, we are the world, lollypops and rainbows, etc. It is absolutely scary how some of these "kids" go elected, IMO.

It has only been the last couple of years that there has been some sort of realisation that China isn't playing according to the script which was to let China do as it pleases.

Yes, and many of that say that for sometime. And it certainly looked like they were being called on to stop that , etc. But sadly that won't be happening in the near future.

Already Biden is softening his stance on China back to his Obama era perspective. SE Asians are already worried about the US reverting to its old stance.

Yes many of us fear that an see it happening. We are not happy with a 3.0 new Admin.

Russia stayed the enemy regardless of what it was doing or how much it was near a failed state in the 1990s.

Very much Agree … and they continue to want to "destroy" the USA. And they must be very pleased with what is happening with many embracing a "socialist" type agenda. Which fortunately on both sides of the aisle is being disagreed with and being fought.

I suspect the Saudis could nuke a US city or three and it wouldn't change anything.

Nope I totally disagree with this. Believe me most Americans feel the same way I do. E.g. with 9/11 we rapidly deployed to A'stan to punish the offenders, etc. But this is a topic we'd have talked about in detail before. The jihadis wanted to attack the USA to punish the infidels. And in return millions of muslims not being jihadis paid the price. As well as AQ, etc.

Anyone who nuked the USA even only 1 or 2 targets. They will reap the whirlwind 10 fold. And yes there will be CD. Again it's not pretty but that is what would happen.