"Widespread Australian warcrimes in Afghanistan" Topic

Sadly it turns out members of the Australian Defence Force have been engaged in systematic human rights abuses and warcrimes in Afghanistan,

Especially tarnished is the famed SAS Regiment which appears to have conducted dozens of illegal murders (I saw the footage where they just executed a guy they found in a field). This appears to have included murder as a form of blooding young soldiers (similar to what Japanese used to do in WWII and China).

The 2nd squadron of the SASR is so badly implicated in that is being disbanded.

Such is the widespread nature of the war crimes that 3000 members of the special forces will potentially lose awards and accolades.

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My opinion

This kind of stuff seems common in special forces. They are basically the worst kind of environment – a bunch of alpha males with a sense of invincibility in an environment disconnected from traditional military culture and discipline.

In recent times the US Navy Seals have also been tarnished with many incidents including murder, sex scandals etc.

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Special forces do a dangerous job but should be kept under tight military discipline and control just like any other unit,

I haven't read any of the posted links and don't know any of the details, but isn't it a little problematic to accuse a soldier of murder in a war zone?

It is when they're an unarmed non-combatant.

War crimes are well defined.

If you want to watch one of the incidents, it is found here.

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Basically they get off a chopper, find a guy in a field, subdue him with a dog and within a minute execute him for no reason expect he is there.

Basically 3 minutes from landing on the ground to some random guy dead in a field.

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The other thing is it turns out murder was used as a "blooding" tool to get soldiers used to killing.

I'm sure you have issues with Japanese bayonetting Allied POWs for same reason in 1941-45.

Same applies to Australian SAS executing unarmed Afghans.

Or do you think summary executions of unarmed people is acceptable behaviour in war or that getting soldiers to murder prison for blooding is an acceptable training tool?

And note this is just the tip of the iceberg – so much is still redacted or kept secret.

The murders allegedly occurred outside of "the heat of battle" and involved prisoners who apparently should have been released.

The commander of the Australian Defense Force gave a very long and detailed explanation of the report last night.

IIRC 19 members are potentially implicated. The statement is confined to a small group of Special Forces during a specific span of years.

It wasn't a small number – it involved at least 2 and 3 Squadrons SASR as well as a 2 Commando. That's most of Australia's special forces. It's also a sizeable chunk of the combat component in Afghanistan as most of the regular army deployments were there to assist with rebuilding the country or training Afghan troops.

2nd SAS Squadron is being disbanded as a result. Obviously that unit is viewed as incapable of being reformed.

And note this is only what was discovered/disclosed. Many other crimes would be undetected either due to redactions, cover ups or lack of witness/evidence and a culture of staying quiet.

No doubt they threw some people under a bus as is usually the case with scandals. Sacrifice some to keep the rest clear. (I see that all the time as a bureaucrat – find a scapegoat and the rest walks).

Indeed one incident involves some SAS troopers slitting the throats of two teenage boys which the rest of the troop had to help clean up the mess by helping dispose of the bodies.

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Indeed:

Defence has only released a redacted version of Brereton's findings, blacking out some sections and suppressing names and identities.

And this article – it literally just confirms "credible" claims – so where there is overwhelming evidence.
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As an Australian, this has been gut wrenching to find out.

At least Australia has been candid about this having taken place, none of the incidents I've heard about could be described as heat of the moment and are absolutely reprehensible.

I understand that some of the troopers had adopted killings as part of tribal blooding culture in order to initiate new members of the regiment.

What's worse is it appears we may have given the Victoria Cross to one of the main perpetrators.

Its not good at all. I've seen the video of the field killing; unacceptable and inexcusable. It needs to be stamped out.

Three things I will say though:

You also should note that the links use the words 'alleged'. Even the (left wing) Guardian says alleged. This allows the presumption of innocence and enables a fair trial in a court of law without any allegation of bias.

Secondly, what is your basis for this claim:

"And note this is only what was discovered/disclosed. Many other crimes would be undetected either due to redactions, cover ups or lack of witness/evidence and a culture of staying quiet."

Thirdly, apparently management gets exonerated as usual.

Guardian = left wing is just ridiculous.

Cases that are prosecuted/exposed are always the tip of the iceberg. History has shown this to be the case so many times it is a fair assumption.

This time the buck should not stop with enlisted/junior officers. Senior commanders have either been derelict or actively looked the other way.

Breaker Morant II ?

Sad story. Soldiers are asked to basically do a police officers job. Arrest people with western standards of possible guilt (innocent until proven guilty).

When it comes to the "blooding" part it is more or less a black mail. Force someone to commit a murder, that way he cannot tell on us without sacrificing himself. kind of like criminal gangs. If some one would not want to commit a murder the person would not be allowed to work in the unit.

The veneer of civilization is quite thin even among the "best" of soldiers.

USAF +1 …
In most cases in the heat of battle, bad things happen. And in the type insurgency our soldiers face, where the enemy hides among the locals. Wearing no uniform, etc. it is very difficult.

In the US ARMY at the Inf Ofc Adv Course, in '83. We spent a day on Mei Lai. What happened, why, and how to preventive this sort of thing. On another day the JAG gave us a class on what is a war crime, etc. Using the movie Breaker Morant as a training aid.

It is pretty clear that executing a POW or unarmed non-combatant is a war crime.

Now in many cases from what I can tell, E.g. when moving thru a village and you start to take heavy fire. You have no option but to return fire and attempt to get out of the kill zone … or die. So no doubt some non-combatants may be hit. But you have to make a split second decision. At that point your entire thought process is to survive. Not just yourself but the lives of your comrades.

In a situation where to are fighting a jihadi or even in WWII IJFs. Who were/are both known for not following any ROE, GCs, etc. Then things can get very brutal. E.g. Watch the movie American Sniper …

The veneer of civilization is quite thin even among the "best" of soldiers.

Yes and no … it is all situational and on troop training & experience. I.e. did you just see your friend blown apart, etc.

Now most here have not been a soldier. I having served 10+ years in my youth, '79-'90, as an Infantry officer in nothing but combat units, e.g. the 101, 2ID, etc. I have never seen a pitched battle, I've Medevac some, seen a few die.

So I am not a Combat Infantryman. But I think I do find it a bit concerning when having never served, some opinions don't carry too much validity, IMO. Of course every one is entitle to an opinion. Nothing wrong with that. But IMO some opinions are more valid than others.

And again, we all know directly killing unarmed POWs or non-combatants is a war crime. But in many cases some of these crimes are not so black & white. E.g. Mei Lai – clearly a war crime … Very unfortunate.

Take my opinion for what it is worth … Nothing more, nothing less … Admittedly I may be a bit biased. Not sorry …

Unfortunately, there will always be bad seeds in the military who like to play God and kill people for no other reason than just because they can. It comes with the territory I guess, but such bad actors must still be brought to account for their crimes so that we're not sending the message that it's okay or acceptable to take lives when it's not justified or necessary.

The problem is that this evidently isn't the odd individual going rogue, but premeditated acts of murder, as some form of initiation process.

That can't be acceptable can it?

Not very qualitative I know, but based on the random selection of former military types I've met over my life in most cases the veneer of civilisation seemed pretty damn thick. Granted no idea what they were like 'in uniform' so to speak. The only really sketchy story I heard involved officer cadets and probably said more about the British class system (excluding the widely reported brutality stuff coming out of some UK bases).

Equally I think this stuff is beyond 'alleged'. And from what I've read nor is it a case of operations gone south or even an issue of 'soldiers having to be police'. This isn't random brutality. I don't like the idea either that its a 'warrior culture' issue IMO its criminal culture the street gang analogy is bang on (okay it may be semantics at some level). Actually I wouldn't be massively shocked if one or more of the core perpetrators wasn't 'fit to stand trial'.

I've no idea about the Australian's SAS's operation deployment command structure or their selection processes – are they self selecting to a point? But clearly something was seriously messed up with their NCO's in that unit and officers apparently not even turning a blind-eye, but seemingly virtually absent. I wouldn't be surprised if the root of this has been brewing for a long time.

Legion there was no heat of battle. They were all executions.

I was shot at by a Serb sniper when I was 11 years old together with my mum and 6 year old brother. I literally felt it whizz by my face and hears it hit the ground in front of me.

Is this too acceptable in the "heat of the battle"?

It's easy for us to sit here as wargaming nerds and comment on frontline soldiers who are doing the hard yards in a dirty war being tarnished by a trial by media. It makes me sick.

TMP members are reminded to be respectful of each other, and to be tolerant of opinions and experiences which differ with your own. Personal attacks are never OK.

@skarper: Your comment "Guardian = left wing is just ridiculous."
With respect, you should learn the rules of debate. You can disagree, don't be offensive. My perception of the Guardian (which I read) is it is left wing. You may disagree with me, but you have no right to be puerile.

"Cases that are prosecuted/exposed are always the tip of the iceberg. History has shown this to be the case so many times it is a fair assumption."

Such as?

"This time the buck should not stop with enlisted/junior officers. Senior commanders have either been derelict or actively looked the other way."

100% agree with you on this one.

33 years in law enforcement (and still going) has taught me that there is a danger in a presumption of guilt. More so in todays social media narrative driven environment (Look at Pell). This leads to incorrect evidence gathering which can ignore both inculpatory and exculpatory elements of the offending. The best way to investigate anything is to gather ALL evidence and place it before a jury that is unbiased and has not had an opportunity to become subliminally biased.

And therein lies the rub, what jurisdiction will hear these matters?

For another viewpoint, right or wrong is not for me to say, but the individual is entitled to their opinion:

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I have two children in the military, one in Special forces. Neither are involved in this but they have asked me "what will people think of me now". I tell them, as I would tell any other veteran or member of the ADF "be proud of yourself".

Not trial by media, or human rights NGO, or lawyer's press briefing.

This is from an Australian military report.

No country, even the most self-flagellatory progressive, willing flushes its diplomatic and military reputation. Even regimes for which this stuff is pretty much policy don't typically admit to it.

there is a danger in a presumption of guilt

Abso-freaking-lutely!

The systemic actions of these people probably, at a minimum indirectly, got local and other foreign troops killed or injured down the line…

Very few cases were prosecuted during past conflicts compared to the numbers for which strong evidence is available. WW2, Vietnam, Malaya…the list just goes on and on. Evidence to prove someone guilty is of course much more stringent than to be confident crimes were committed.

Sorry you were upset by my saying the Guardian is not left wing in such strong terms. I already dialed it back a few steps to be polite. Can I say 'blatantly false'? You are entitled to your opinion but so am I. To my mind, the Guardian has never been 'left wing' and has lately swung somewhat to the right.

Guilt by association is tragically inevitable. It applies to any group, such as teachers, police, clergy and indeed the military. If a few individuals offend, everybody is suddenly suspect. Hopefully when things calm down and the guilty have been dealt with it will settle down. I'm sure even in this case, in which there does seem to be an endemic problem, the vast majority of soldiers in the units were not directly involved and were powerless to stop the actions of their colleagues.

I'm withholding final judgement until the cases have been tried in a court of law, but there is certainly a case to answer.

The systemic actions of these people probably, at a minimum indirectly, got local and other foreign troops killed or injured down the line

This is a most salient point, carrying out killings more or less guarantees that the friends and relatives of those killed will seek revenge against other troops, it becomes an endless cycle of violence. My friend who served in Iraq said that the battles he was involved in weren't too bad, it was the routine patrols where you might be attacked at any time, by people who you thought were friendly which really took its toll.

Wargamer Blue +2

Korsun0 +2

Bill +1 … Ok +2

Unfortunately, there will always be bad seeds in the military

Yes, very true and those number compared to the numbers involved is tiny … And yes in a very few situations some do get away with murder.

If a few individuals offend, everybody is suddenly suspect.

Yes that is what my posts were trying to say. And I came to the defense of the military, in general. As I have said, growing up during Vietnam many in the military were automatically the villains. By many in the media, etc. and they did nothing but serve their nation honorably.

If a few individuals offend, everybody is suddenly suspect.

I even remember even in ROTC '75-'79. When in uniform we were called many things I won't say here. Given the Heil Hitler, the finger, etc., etc. And we did nothing but wear a uniform.

I hope some here get what I was and are trying to say.

newarch +1

Abso-freaking-lutely!

Yes … very much so …

I nor anyone else here were saying that those war crimes did not happen. Or were not crimes. Based on the evidence here, it appears that some are guilty in some way, shape or form.

It may upset some because I was an Army officer and versed or very well versed on many military topics including war crimes, etc. And it may upset some that being an officer for over 10+ years. I do know more than you when it comes to many things about the military. Not sorry. I even having served on a Court Martial. Any of you ?

When some rant or make negative comments about the military in some way or another. Generally I've notice some are biased and never had anything to do with the military. Save for what they read or saw in the media.

Of course everyone is allowed to have an opinion, but that does not mean it is correct. Many opinions IMO, are biased in some way or another. I even have admitted at times mine could be too.

I remember after I got out of the Army. Someone in the group of us, asked a USMC Vietnam Vet who had two tours. What he thought about Mie Lai. He made it clear he was not there and neither were you. I sometimes remember that he said that. Rings true to me in some cases.

I also remember that old saying, something like, "Don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes."

Or in this case, don't judge a man until you have walked 10 miles in his boots. When it comes to the military. Just my opinion and again it may be a little biased. But I have walked 10-12 miles many time in those boots. You ?

Nobody is free from bias. We have to recognise it in others and if possible ourselves.

Legion tends to jump to the defence of the military for reasons of loyalty. I can understand and accept that.

My own biases are less obvious to me. I tend to take the side of the underdog in any situation. I abhor hypocrisy and often see red when I detect this particular vice.

As such I often take an anti-American stance. Not out of hatred for Americans who are mostly decent, hard-working people in my limited experience but because very often the US is in conflict with much weaker adversaries and the US Government and many of its leaders can be dreadful hypocrites.

It's a nice saying to 'not judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes' but sadly, we have to do this at some point. I think it's important to try to understand why people in extraordinary circumstances behave the way they do but there are limits to what we can do. You don't have to have been at My Lai on March 16, 1968 to have an opinion on the massacre. The Marine in question is entitled to keep his own counsel, of course. Perhaps he could envisage one day getting caught up in a similar situation and knowing he might well have participated or at least been unable to prevent the murders and rapes. Col. Oran Henderson [the highest ranking US officer put on trial over the massacres] made the point that 'every large unit has its My Lai'.

I hope the people in these Australian cases get a fair trial, and any mitigating circumstances are taken into account to an appropriate degree. Also, I hope those in charge who could and should have done more to prevent these things happening are held to account.

As such I often take an anti-American stance.

I understand that and accept it as well …

but because very often the US is in conflict with much weaker adversaries

Well the US has one of the most powerful and experience militaries on the planet. Few are not weaker adversaries.

US Government and many of its leaders can be dreadful hypocrites.

Don't get me started on that … 🤐 It's al over the media, etc.

I think it's important to try to understand why people in extraordinary circumstances behave the way they do but there are limits to what we can do.

Again everybody is entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Some would say since one may have never been in a situation like that … so again, their opinion holds less validity. Regardless … we all know a war crime like is discussed here is wrong and illegal.

You don't have to have been at My Lai on March 16, 1968 to have an opinion on the massacre.

Obviously, and as I said, we did studied it at the Infantry School. To prevent this sort of happening again.

The Marine in question is entitled to keep his own counsel, of course.

The USMC Vietnam Vet I mentioned with 2 tours. Was very bitter, argumentative and even hard to get along with at times. After 2 tours with the USMC in Vietnam, I accepted he may be that way from his experience there. But after a while I tried not to be around him. And there was nothing I could do for him. From what I understand he is still a bit that way today. May he find his own separate peace in his own time.

Perhaps he could envisage one day getting caught up in a similar situation and knowing he might well have participated or at least been unable to prevent the murders and rapes.

I wouldn't know what was going on in his mind. From the time I spent with him[he worked out at my gym] I don't think he would have done anything like that. But one never knows, as I said before, as he said, I was not there, with him. Or at Mei Lai, or with the Aussie SAS in A'stan.

Now for clarification for those that don't know. Mei Lai [or My Lai] was a US ARMY war crime. link A Very sad event. Some their did try to stop it. But much damage was done before they did. Again that is why as Officers we studied it. To prevent this from happening again.

But I do know many Vet's who were in Vietnam and other wars don't like being judge by those that were not there. Especially if they never wore a uniform. I get that … and respect that. And in some instances I feel the same.

And at no time in this thread or otherwise do I condone what occurred in any of these war crimes mentioned here. Again we were taught to prevent such things. But as we all know sometimes it may not be preventable until it is too late.

That's all very well put.

It's tempting to only talk with those who share our own biases or opinions – an echo chamber effect – but it's much more valuable to discuss things with those we don't already agree with. We probably won't change each others minds but everybody learns something in the process.

I agree ! We talk and discuss, that is how we exchange concepts, ideas and experiences. And yes … that is how we learn, etc., …

And I've been thinking why I spell Mei Lai this way. I think I found it on an old map(?). But I will try to use My Lai, it is more recognizable.

No country, even the most self-flagellatory progressive, willing flushes its diplomatic and military reputation…

In some cases, the ruling class actively despises the military class.

True, look at what happened during Vietnam … Current poles say 90% of the US population has a favorable attitude about our military.

I guess with that 10% … you can't please everybody … 😁

In some cases, the ruling class actively despises the military class.

That is when time is ripe for a coup d'etat and the establishment of a military junta.

"That is when time is ripe for a coup d'etat and the establishment of a military junta."

That's how you make EVERYONE hate the military – for generations!

Democracy can be frustrating at times – well most of the time actually – but military dictatorship!? Are you joking?

The only answer is for citizens to rise up and vote out the 'ruling class'. Then bolster the free press, independent judiciary and electoral integrity. And get money out of politics. Why run for office when you can buy both sides?

If the general population has a low opinion of their military, either there is something wrong with the military or the PR is badly run.

As for the 'ruling class' they need to be done away with ASAP.

Lot of condemnation on this thread. How about we wait until someone is actually proven to have committed a crime?

@skarper – my apologies, my tone was wrong in my response about the Guardian. Thankyou for not responding in kind.

No apology needed.

Dn Jackson +1 Good point and you are a LEO so you would know …

A pretty good article

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When it comes to wait until some one is proven guilty. Obviously it was enough for their supreme commander to entirely strike a unit from the order of battle forever…

As a LEO myself for more than 20 ys and soldier before that including multiple deployments I can attest that just because no one is found guilty nothing happend… It is more the rule that things happen but no one is even investigated.

I think what most people found hard to stomach is that the killings were carried out as a form of ritualized rite of passage for the brotherhood, not unlike the initiation or hazing at a college fraternity.

It is more the rule that things happen but no one is even investigated.

As I said some do get away with murder.

As a LEO myself for more than 20 ys and soldier

Thank you for your service in both organizations.

killings were carried out as a form of ritualized rite of passage for the brotherhood

Very true and that makes it seem so much more brutal, I'd imagine in many/most opinions.

Thanks Legion. It's my honor to serve.

All I'm saying is let's prove a crime was committed before we hang someone. I've seen all too often that the mob comes howling for blood on a report of wrong doing only to find later that the initial report was inaccurate, wrong, or deceptive.

Thank you Dn. One old trooper to another …

All I'm saying is let's prove a crime was committed before we hang someone. I've seen all too often that the mob comes howling for blood on a report of wrong doing only to find later that the initial report was inaccurate, wrong, or deceptive.

I agree, some should put the torches and pitchforks away. When the investigation is finally concluded, at the "i"s dotted and "T"s crossed.

The writer of the report major general Brereton have spent four years investigating. According to the article I have read, which I have no reason to doubt, they have reviewed more than 20,000 documents, interviewed more than 400 persons and checked more than 25.000 pictures /images.

"The report found:

Special forces were responsible for dozens of unlawful killings, the vast majority of which involved prisoners, and were deliberately covered up.
Thirty-nine Afghans were unlawfully killed in 23 incidents, either by special forces or at the instruction of special forces.
None of the killings took place in the heat of battle, and they all occurred in circumstances which, if accepted by a jury, would constitute the war crime of murder.
All the victims were either non-combatants or were no longer combatants.
A total of 25 perpetrators have been identified either as principals or accessories. Some are still serving in the ADF.
In all cases, the report finds it "was or should have been plain that the person killed was a non-combatant". The vast majority of victims had been captured and were under control, giving them the protection under international law."

39 cases have been given to the Australian police for further investigation.

So no pitchforks yet. Just a unit disbanded from the OOB forever. But I guess the police will investigate even more.

The movie which shows a trooper asking to shoot a unarmed man lying on the ground and then shooting him is in the specific case fairly damning.

I have no dog at all in this fight, but i do not think that the allegations are unfounded. If some are convicted I have no idea nor really care.

I don't disagree with you, but just so everything is done correctly and it appears it was. As I said before at no time in this thread or otherwise do I condone what occurred in any of these war crimes mentioned here. I can't make that any clearer. It is pretty clear that executing a POW or unarmed non-combatant is a war crime.

And yes it is pretty clear many involved in this war crime, some if not all are guilty of at least murder.

I even served on a Court Martial. Though no where near as horrible as this. No one was hurt or died. Just some very poor leadership, etc.

Saw this on military.com this morning … about this subject …

Australia to Discharge 13 Soldiers After Afghan War Crimes Probe

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