"conjectural Flags of Joseph "spanish" regiments" Topic

Hi there
I'm planning to build a napoleonic spanish army in Minifig 25mm, but as I already have one on the Ferninando VII side, I'll do "Josefinos" now. Three first one will be the guards; Granaderos (french troops) Fusileros (Spanish troops), and Real Estranjeros (about every other nations that could be found)

As almost nothing can be found about the flags that this army had (all burnt by the Cortes when recovered, and no description from the "Afrancesados" side), except the flag of the 6th (Malaga) line, I did some reconstruction that I think may not be too far from historical ones (but who knows…)
so here they are, feel free to use/transform/enhance it, It was made on MSPaint…

Certainly not unreasonable, gounour. Was the flag of the 6th inscribed in Spanish? It's been a while, but I seem to recall the 1st issues to some of the satellite kingdoms being in French, which seemed nicely symbolic of the relationship.

I was under the impression that Joseph, Napoleon's brother had issued the
lozenge standard which had been issued to the foreign regiments in French service. I am not sure if it was red and blue quarters or varied in color like the Italian red and green quarters.

I haven't seen any idea of a flag for the guards, but if the line regiments are anything to go by, I wouldn't expect to see writing. The flags aren't exactly like the Bourbon ones, but there does seem to be an attempt to show some continuation of tradition.

The Spanish Ministerio de defensa publication "Banderas, estandartes y trofeos del Museo del Ejercito" gives the decree regarding what the line regiment flags looked like. Seems they all followed the pattern of the 6th which I believe had no writing on it. link uses Manzano's book, also from the Min. de Def, although the illustration there is a line drawing.
I'm guessing you may have seen these and/or the original link – the blurb at the side seem to have the first article of the decree – I _think_ the writing mentioned is just in the collar and in the cross, so really tiny. Note that while it is described as the collar of the order of the Golden Fleece, it seems a cross replaced the actual fleece.

I think the decree also says that the light infantry had a horn instead, though my Spanish isn't good enough to be sure.

There is, though, this link which is much more in the French tradition of a lozenge while having an even more traditional portrayal of the royal arms, albeit with Joseph's replacing the Bourbons'. Since it is dated 1810 and the decree was 1809, perhaps the new design hadn't reached them yet or perhaps the reality was that only the regts raised from 1810 ever had the new design.

Wow the lozenge design as described. The color combination was looked like red and yellow.

I would imagine that any writing could be either painted or embroidered. I examined American Civil War Alabama flags that were either way and a few were both ways. One Hardee flag had embroidered unit number and painted battle sites, honors. So if they could do it in 1860, I see no reason why they could not in 1810.

hi all,
the 6th had no incription of any sort, only the number in the ccorners, within a 8-sided star of unknown color (because age-faded), and teh flags I'll do for my line regiments will be so, but for the guards I decided it had to be more flashy ;)

And a Ferdinando VII guard flag from 1820 has such an inscription, which is not in line with former Bourbon Spanish flags, so it has to come from somewhere…

the lozenge form doesn't seem to be based on anything , except "Joseph Napoleon" French regiment, which was…French you know, so with French flag, with french inscription from Napoleon Ier
Swampster> Indeed, I saw this reconstruction, which seems quite good, and will be used, and on par with teh surviving flag, but your third one has a big flaw, the uniform of the flag bearer has not much to do with the first (1809) uniform for 1st and 2nd line, IE brown (natural wool) coat and collar, yellow-piped red front, cuffs, turnbacks and shoulder straps. It is in line with Liénard et humbert plates, but only because they let it white , not knowing it"s color…
so a wrong uniform does not go very far with having a real flag…

The plate is from those made by Achard and Jose Maria Bueno rates them highly. They are based on contemporary sketches. One thing in its favour is that the arms of JN seem to have been drawn accurately, though whether the original sketch was as detailed is another matter.

I know that the use of even original sketches has to be treated with caution.

Have you seen this previous thread?
TMP link
The description of the Garde de Corps has quite a lot of text but is some kind of tricolore. I wonder what SN's source was.

The French magazine 'Soldats Napoleoninens' #2 Oct 2003 – has an article on the Regiments of Joseph's Spanish army and it includes a photo of a surviving flag from 'le chateau de Castille' – it is very similar to the flags of Bourbon army – white with arms in the centre – the bourbon portion of the escutcheon is replaced with a black eagle on a gold field. There are red eight pointed stars in each corner which have the number 6 (presumably 6th regt) on a white circle in each corner.

Oh… and no writing at all – hope that helps

If you speak any Spanish you should get hold of a copy of El Ejercito Español de Jose Napoleon by Luis Sorando Muzas. It's a very detailed study of Joseph's Army. He quotes a Spanish Royal Decree of 1809. 'Each line and light battalion will carry a tafetan flag with the coat of arms in the centre with a coloured silk border (border colour is not specified). In the four corners of each flag will be the regimental number, inside a red star for the line regiments and a trumpet for the lights.' No mentions of any writing.

Luis Sorando goes on to say' unfortunately we have no references for the flags of the Royal Guards or Foreign Regiments but I would venture to say that they had the royal arms in the centre and in the corners a flaming grenade for the grenadiers, a horn with a grenade above for the Voltigeurs and a star with five points and lightning bolts for the foreign regiments.'