"Old/Middle Guard Company Distinctions?" Topic

Assuming that the Old/Middle Guard Grenadiers and Chasseurs had the same six companies in 1815 as line battalions (is that correct?) then a) were they just numbered 1-6 (presumably there were no "flank" companies?) and b) were there any distinctions between companies?

I thought they had 8 companies of 80 men…?

Only four companies in a Guards battalion (no flank companies). No company distinctions as far as I am aware (but will need to check).

In 1815 companies were 150 men on the peacetime establishment, but raised to 200 men per company on a war establishment. Needless to say, these totals were not achieved.

Not to split hairs, but "Guards" is British; "Guard" is French.

Perhaps just missing an apostrophe as in "Guard's". A battalion of the guard.

Not to split hairs, but

I mean what would this forum be but this?!

Have you got a source for that?

Old Guard battalions were organised as four companies and deployed in eight platoons.
For the organisation:
link

If we can fight over a leather harness, we can fight over anything (to paraphrase the Duke).

Imperial Guard Infantry

Napoleon did not officially classify the Imperial Guard into Old, Middle, or Young Guard until 1812, shortly before the beginning of the Russian campaign. The organization of the senior regiments of Grenadiers a Pied and Chasseurs a Pied changed from time to time, and the regiments were increased, and then decreased, periodically until finally in 1815 there were four each Old Guard regiments of grenadiers and chasseurs.

Organization:
1804:
Grenadiers a Pied:
The regiment had two battalions of 8 companies each. Each company had four officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 1 fourrier, 2 corporal sapeurs, 2 drummers, and 80 grenadiers.

There was one battalion of velites of five companies. Each company had 2 officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sargeants, 8 corporals, 2 drummers, and 172 velites.

Chasseurs a Pied:
The regiment had two battalions of 8 companies each. Each company had four officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 1 fourrier, 2 corporal sapeurs, 2 drummers, and 80 chasseurs.

There was one battalion of velites of five companies. Each company had 2 officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sargeants, 8 corporals, 2 drummers, and 172 velites.

1806:

Grenadiers a Pied:*
Two regiments of grenadiers and one regiment of velites were formed by a decree of 15 April 1806. Each of the three regiments was composed of two battalions. Each grenadier battalion had four companies of 120 grenadiers. The grenadier companies had 3 officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 1 fourrier, 2 corporal sapeurs, 2 drummers and 102 grenadiers. When on a war footing, two companies of velites would march with each grenadier battalion.

Each velite company was composed of 2 officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 1 fourrier, 2 drummers, and 150 velites.

Chasseurs a Pied:*
Two regiments of chasseurs and one regiment of velites were formed by a decree of 15 April 1806. Each of the three regiments was composed of two battalions. Each chasseur battalion had four companies of 120 chasseurs. The chasseur companies had 3 officers, 1 sergeant-major, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 1 fourrier, 2 corporal sapeurs, 2 drummers and 102 chasseurs. When on a war footing, two companies of velites would march with each chasseur battalion.

1810:

By a decree of 13 September 1810 the 2d Grenadiers a Pied (Dutch) were created when the Kingdom of Holland was annexed to France. They were renumbered the 3d Grenadiers a Pied when a new French 2d Regiment of Grenadiers a Pied were reformed in anticipation of the invasion of Russia by a decree of 18 May 1811. The regiment lost heavily in Russia and its survivors were put into the 1st Regiment of Grenadiers a Pied.

1815:
Grenadiers a Pied:
By a decree of 8 April 1815 3 regiments of Grenadiers a Pied of the Old Guard were ordered to be formed, each to be of two battalions of four companies each, each company to be between 150 and 200 grenadiers. On 9 May 1815 the 4th Grenadiers were ordered to be formed by decree. All four regiments were Old Guard. The 1st Regiment numbered 32 officers and 1,000 other ranks. The 2d Regiment 34 officers and 1,060 other ranks; the 3d Regiment 34 officers and 1,146 other ranks, and, apparently, the 4th Regiment consisted of a single battalion of 508 all ranks.

Chasseurs a Pied:
By a decree of 8 April 1815 3 regiments of Chasseurs a Pied of the Old Guard were ordered to be formed, each to be of two battalions of four companies each, each company to be between 150 and 200 chasseurs. The 4th Chasseurs a Pied were ordered formed by decree on 9 May 1815. All four regiments were Old Guard. The 1st Regiment numbered 41 officers and 1,307 other ranks; the 2d Regiment 35 officers and 1,200 other ranks; the 3d Regiment 38 officers and 1,100 other ranks.

*After the 1807 campaign the 2d Regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs were amalgamated with the 1st Regiments only to be reformed in 1811.

Sources:

-La Garde Imperiale by L Fallou.

-The Anatomy of Glory by Henry Lachouque.

@op

Unlike the Russians (whose Guard units were used as the model for the rest of the army and had same organisation as line units – a model of emulatory simplicity) – the French Guard kept their eight-tactical units organisation (peletons) whilst the line went the way of six peletons.

Possibly Gen N. did this to spread out his line infantry officers more thinly. 3 battalions of 9 companies = 27 capitaines (*). 4 battalions of 6 cies = 24 capitaines + 3 spares.

The Imperial Guard had its own regulations from uniforms to artillery, so it is not surprising that the organization of their infantry battalions differed from Ligne/Legere units.

And the Old Guard infantry did not have elite companies, as the entire unit was elite.

As to being a model for the army, the Imperial Guard, especially the Old Guard infantry, cavalry, and artillery most certainly were. 'The Guard developed a feeling of emulation throughout the French Army' and admission to the Guard was open to any outstanding soldier. And they were combat troops-the Russian Guard, especially in the early campaigns of the Empire were not-they were parade troops.

A comparison of the qualifications for entrance into both organizations might be interesting and enlightening.

Many thanks Delort, Allan and Brechtel – 4 it is!

But any idea about distinctions? Different fanions? Any thoughts?

Company fanions could have been different between companies, battalions, and regiments, but there were no uniform distinctions as far as I have discovered.

Technically, Isn't it La Garde?

Technically:

The whole organisation is 'garde impérial'.
The Old Guard is 'vielle garde'.
The Young Guard is 'jeune garde'.

But add an e to give Imperiale, with an acute accent over the e, as above but beyond my typing skills. La Garde….feminine. Strange language……..

I suppose just like in English every ship is a "she".

Splitting hairs? Right now that is about the only entertainment we are allowed

Noun gender is pretty arbitrary AIUI. By convention they're termed masculine and feminine, but they could just as easily be called red and blue, or up and down. The idea is to ensure you associate the right adjectives in the sentence with the right noun, which you do by giving them all matching word-endings. Pretty clever actually considering it was thought up more or less as soon as language was.

Case endings are clever too. If you have a subject and an object case ending, then it is impossible to confuse subject and object. The words mean the same in any order.

English largely dispenses with both except for a rare few such as 'who' / 'whom' and blond / blonde, but has to enforce strict word order instead, to avoid confusion.

Et les couilles? En grammaire…..

@deadhead

By gum, well spotted, Sir!

Technically:

The whole organisation is 'garde impériale'.
The Old Guard is 'vielle garde'.
The Young Guard is 'jeune garde'.

'vieille Garde' strictly…

Interestingly, Aristide Martinien ('Tableaux, par corps et par batailles, etc.) uses the lower case name.

hi all,
considering the 1815 campaign flanders, recent studies have shown that the numbers used for about 2 centuries for the french army are inaccurate, for they were based on the June 10th returns; and between the 10th and the 15th, about 15-18000 troops joined the ranks, sometimes as complete battalions, sometimes as driblets.
the 4th grenadiers is somewhat an odd unit, as it has 27 officers and 8 companies shown ont the june 10th return, (so enough for 2 battalions) but only 520 "present".
someone with a passion went through more than 200 pages of Biographical data to show more than 600 troops belonging to this unit as having been present at Waterloo. thus that regiment certainly fought as an ad-hoc battalion with twice as much CO/NCO as every other guards units.

Uniform-wise, the 3rd and 4th "Grenadiers/chasseurs de la garde" have been ordered to wear about the same uniform that the 1st/2nd regiments, but there seems to have been almost no delivery of such (no time to sew so many uniforms in just 2 month, or no will to trust such a new and untried governement to pay for it?), so they certainly fought in their old Line uniform, perhaps with new buttons if anything was done.