"sustain formation in a forest by cavalry and infantry" Topic

was this possibly l ike a line?

even cavalry attacking?

infantry o.k. but cavalry

Light infantry yes; line infantry can certainly move thru woods but as the woods thicken tough to maintain coherent formation; cavalry not at all

All depends on how thick the wood is. At Quatre Bras the Bois de Bossu was too thick for anything but infantry in open order. In other places open orchards would be no hindrance to troops in close order. However, even the most open woods are going to impede cavalry making it almost impossible to maintain a formation.

al depends on the undergrowth even with horses?

officer in charge made how to proceed what formation he would fit?
what formation would this no documents about this right?

Any formation other than skirmish will quickly break down when travelling through a forest. Aside from the ducking around of trees and bushes, dressing lines is done by eye and your view is obstructed by trees in the woods. Higher command would monitor the battle by sight, messenger and hearing, in the woods none of these would work well. Not that it can't be done, just that it isn't easy. Read about the Wilderness campaign in the American Civil War, that's probably the best example.

Sergeant Joe

Excuseer mijn Nederlands, Duolingo is waar ik zoiets leer. Artilleyman heeft gelijk. Cavalerie bewoog zich regelmatig in boomgaarden en van wat ik lees, onderhoudt formaties. De uitdaging met boomgaarden en wargames is dat sommige boomgaarden intermitterende muren of hekken hebben die de beweging belemmeren maar niet stoppen. De bossen moeten beter worden begrepen – zwaar of middelzwaar – geen cavalerie. Licht bos – cavalerie kan er doorheen bewegen, maar de formatie is twijfelachtig. De meeste regels zijn te algemeen of te hoog niveau, dus cavalerie gaat het lichte bos in en komt naar buiten en hervormt zich snel zonder een beurt of meerdere spelbeurten te gebruiken.

Michael Hopper
log1cal.mh@gmail.com

Wow, this just gets worse and worse_______

At Quatre Bras the Bois de Bossu was too thick for anything but…

Really, whats the proof of that? Even though I've not studied or even read on the W. campaign in many years, has the subject that a horse battery (RHA? or was it French) was deployed and used [well] inside the wood been debunked or what?

Completely missing from this discussion is the fact that 'urban' woods and/ or forest were very well manicured, kept clear of fallen wood and used for local hunting, not covered in bush, brush and wild flora like 'modern' unkempt natural growth and parks/ reserves exhibits.
At a mind- stage I've forgotten the word for this clearance.

Built up Belgium is just such a place, as was much of France.
d

The practice for most nations' infantry was to either stay in small columns or disperse into a skirmish line, forming up on the other side of the woods.

Practical experience from commanding a battalion of Civil War reenactors showed me that a close order formation cannot pass through thick woods and underbrush without coming apart. A line will become a number of small columns making their way through whatever open pathways that can be found. Often the columns will be single file. However, the moment the movement is halted, well-trained troops (which mine were) will quickly reform at least a semblance of a line and be able to present a reasonably solid front. The real challenge was usually trying to maintain contact with the friendly battalions on either side. And, of course, trying to figure out where the enemy was :)

ScottWashburn – really well said. I have quite a few close friends in my home town who re-enacted with the 17th Mississippi who indicated the EXACT SAME THING. most wargames penalize units moving through such by not allowing it or having them move so slow as to be ineffective. My compatriots in the 17th have indicated the same. Also, cavalry were moving through woods where there was NO undergrowth and the reforming did not take whole game turns of 15-20 minutes either. You nailed it Scott.

I think the games that use a disruption mechanic have the right of it, although one set of rules {Johnny Reb?} overdid it when the regiment passed through a fence.

asking this for troops coming of the black forest or end of itlike batle of austerlitz?
so no trooper or soldier to inspect the forst for undergrowth?

Het belangrijkste probleem van de periode is de coördinatie van troepen. De generaal moet kunnen zien waar de soldaten zijn – zodat ze de juiste bevelen kunnen geven en de juiste acties kunnen uitvoeren; soldaten die in een bos verdwijnen, staan beide in de weg – ze zijn zo goed als verloren voor de generaal.

Bij Quatre Bras slaagden de Fransen erin om het bos van Bossu te onderhandelen – maar waren natuurlijk meesters in het massaal opereren (colonnes) en konden – ongetwijfeld – de verbinding tussen de bataljons in een brigade houden.

In Waterloo maakte de hertog van Wellington zich grote zorgen over het feit dat hij een bos achter zijn rug had – hij redeneerde dat gerouteerde troepen die veiligheid in het bos zouden vinden, onmogelijk zouden zijn om zich te verzamelen en terug te keren naar het gevecht. (Misschien maakte hij zich teveel zorgen over zijn Nederlands-Belgische bondgenoten?)

Houd er ondanks dit alles ook rekening mee dat Europese bossen zwaar beheerd zouden worden door hakhout enzovoort en dus meer open zouden zijn dan we ons vandaag kunnen voorstellen.

Google translate back to Jesus' language:

The main problem of the period is the coordination of troops. The general must be able to see where the soldiers are – so that they can give the right orders and perform the right actions; soldiers disappearing into a forest are both in the way – they are all but lost to the general.

At Quatre Bras the French managed to negotiate the Bossu forest – but were of course masters of massive operation (columns) and could – no doubt – maintain the connection between the battalions in a brigade.

In Waterloo, the Duke of Wellington was deeply concerned that he had a forest behind his back – he reasoned that routed troops who would find safety in the forest would be impossible to rally and return to the fight. (Maybe he was too worried about his Dutch-Belgian allies?)

Despite all this, also keep in mind that European forests would be heavily managed by coppice and so on and thus be more open than we can imagine today.

My original witless utterings:

The main problem of the period is coordination of troops. The General must be able to see where the soldiers are – so they can issue appropriate orders and execute appropriate actions; soldiers disappearing into a forest precludes both of these – they are as good as lost to the General.

At Quatre Bras the French managed to negotiate the Wood of Bossu – but, of course, were masters of operating in masse (columns) and could – no doubt – keep the linkage between the battalions in a brigade.

At Waterloo, the Duke of Wellington was very concerned about having a forest at his back – he reasoned that routed troops finding safety in the forest would be impossible to rally and return to the fight. (Maybe he was unduly concerned about his Dutch-Belgian allies?)

Despite all this please also note that European forests would be heavily managed by coppicing and so on and so be more open than we can imagine today.

stil not clear cavalry hrough the forest in line or an colomne

I would respectfully suggest that in any heavily wooded area, even if clear of undergrowth maintainence of formation order will be problematic for infantry and cavalry alike. Indeed our British Guards today sometimes have wavy lines and that is on a parade ground.

Ducking low hanging branches on horseback is not going to be conducive to formation keeping and in a time of ordered formations regular halts for lines to be dressed will be required.

Add in undergrowth and the problems multiply.

I am a big believer in getting out and about to try out these questions.

Even light undergrowth starts to diminish your speed of travel and of course navigation needs to be factored in.

My understanding from Field is that the Bossu wood was a mixture of cleared areas and vegetation.

Another of the problems was the hedges restricting access around it, however Ibid claims that a French battery operated in it.

Personally, I feel that woods are a potential nightmare for cohesion, command and control if you leave the tracks.

There is also the problem of ambush, indeed General Reille alluded to this at Quatre Bras.

I have my units moving at half speed which are considered disorganised for fire and morale purposes until the ranks are dressed.

Best wishes,

Chris

There are forests and forests of course.

If you walk through the Forest of Soignies today, it would present few serious obstacles even to Waterloo-era artillery. There are no low-hanging tree branches and there is next to no ground cover.

It's not really a forest at all in the sense of a wilderness of trees.

This sort of thing on the other hand is another matter entirely.

Leave that path and I reckon you'd get stuck long before you got lost.

Beautiful pictures which graphically illustrate the realities.

Silbourne in his history describes the Soignies forest to be passable on page 221 as it was, as illustrated essentially tall trees and limited undergrowth.

It would appear little changed.

Best wishes,

Chris

>>European forests would be heavily managed by coppicing and so on and so be more open than we can imagine today.

Thats what was eluding me… thanks.
Yes, in contrast to the perception (and actuality) of Nth American forests, much of European (and British) 'urban' forested/ woodlands areas were cleared.

No undergrowth, no "low hanging branches" etc. as cited. Simply none.

I have the same pictures 'in forest' from around Versailles, the Marne (1814) and when I went to US, those 'tracks' in (1775-83) Vermont, Massechussetts and New York (Ticonderoga etc.)- like chalk and cheese, even 250 +/- years later.
regards d

just a difficult question huh? thanks any way joe

for cavalry stil this one with great problems just joe

so two line of column for cavalry think this the only solution officers right or left of him? just a thought grts joe

A video from Jim Owczarski's youtube page showing the Buch Berg woods at the Battle of Teugen-Hausen (Thann).

YouTube link

and the area around Roith showing the woods

YouTube link

I think stoppage nailed the issue. We often tend to focus on the problem of moving a batallion whereas the problem for commanders at the time was how to move a brigade or a formation. Similary to advancing in line, a batllionn could make it through most not to desne woods in a resonable time. the problem was how to control an extended line and keep it aligned.

michel hopper your dutch is good
so they could be never on time to restore in batle formation

At the Berezina, 7e Cuirassiers charged in line through a wood, to break a square that was advancing unopposed on Napoleon's HQ – been a while since I read through the sources, but my recollection is that every eyewitness realised they'd just watched the impossible happen…

Count Ordoner really needs a good modern biography. Or a film.

We often tend to focus on the problem of moving a batallion whereas the problem for commanders at the time was how to move a brigade or a formation.

Completely disagree.
While I abhor the twee little 'patches' that some people pretend are great forests on the gaming table- there are a lot of similarities to the real mccoy.

Read enough battle and contact reports and you will find only portions of formations being led, dragged or pushed into covered terrain- as much to see whats NOT on the other side.

Marching a corps through a massive forested (and probably hilly) terrain is not the same as recon with interest to locate and identify enemy strong/weak points and or position before contact.

As gamers I believe we've got the latter reasonably well 'covered'. Many an 'encounter battle' begins with a bit of a brush in the woods.

Tactically I don't believe any general wanted an 'invisible' link in his line of battle, so I find that kind of spurious. These nearly always are dysfunctional terrain and treated as such. A break in the line [of battle] more than continuing it.

d

Could infantry maintain formation while moving through a wood or forest?

Perhaps this will answer that question nicely.

link

Imagine these lines of guardsmen trying to maintain their dressing, moving through Hougoumont Woods.

It would be a non starter, in my view. .