"Books on the armies and battles of the WOTR." Topic

Hello everyone,

What is the most documented book on the armies and battles of the WOTR. Thank you.

Thank you.

There is no one book on the subject.

Philip A. Haigh "The Military Campaigns of the Wars of the Roses"

Philip A. Haigh "The Military Campaigns of the Wars of the Roses"

But don't trust the maps. In some cases they are completely inaccurate. Also, the book is now somewhat dated e.g. there are much better interpretations of battles such as Bosworth and Northampton based on new research and archaeology.

Well there is nothing then ?

Hello Paskal

I did answer this but the thread has been deleted.

Major: what are your primary sources regarding Haigh's maps?

Major: what are your primary sources regarding Haigh's maps?

In Fig 7.1 Preliminary moves for the battle of St Albans he places Harpenden between St Albans and Hatfield. Harpenden is north of St Albans (towards Luton) not east. There is no town between St Albans and Hatfield and they are only 4 miles apart anyway. Just look at any map of the area
link

If he gets one map completely wrong what confidence does that give you about any other of his maps?

But what about the Battle maps (figs. 7.3 & 7.4)? And do you consider Google maps a primary source?!

Fig 7.3 :
Legend says A/B Lancastrian second attack into St. Albans.
Incorrect. A is the first attack that was defeated at the clock tower, B is the second attack which met little resistance and effectively continued onto Bernards Heath to position marked D.
C Yorkist archers are in the wrong place. They were in the buildings around the clock tower.

In both maps the Abbey is far too small and on the wrong alignment.

As to Google maps, depends what you mean by primary source. Have you any evidence that Harpenden is between Hatfield and St Albans?

Here's the OS map if you prefer:
link
Can't get more definitive than that.

The Haigh book is awesome.

Also can't go wrong with the 3 Osprey campaign books: Towton, Tewkesbury, and Bosworth.

Oops. Misunderstood the question. I'm not sure how well documented those are. They are just good introductions.

Major: The OS map tells me nothing about the battle. What are the primary sources for your assertions??

The OS map tells me nothing about the battle.

The OS map proves that Haigh hasn't got a clue where Harpenden is. It thus calls into question the other maps and indeed the whole of the book.

What are the primary sources for your assertions??

You will find the primary sources for the second battle of St Albans listed in the Further Reading section (p174 ff) of "The Battles of St Albans", Burley, Elliott and Watson, Pen & Sword 2007.

I agree with MajorB … Haigh's book (of which I have a copy) is now out-of-date regards current scholarship on many of the battle (Northampton, Edgcote, Bosworth etc.) … I wouldn't recommend it.

Phil

In conclusion from what I just read on this topic, there is no one good documented book on the armies and battles of the WOTR. Thank you.

In fact the best currently is the book by Ian Heath, Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1: The Hundred Years' War, the Wars of the Roses and the Burgundian Wars, 1300-1487, Wargames Research Group, 1982…

Try Blood Royal and Battle Royal by Hugh Bicheno. He uses the latest archaeology and topographical interpretations in his battles, Bosworth for instance comes across as a clear and logical narrative.

Yes, Hugh B is more up to date than most, and his maps are good.

Phil

There are many good properly referenced books on the WOTR, Paskal, and you should read several. They won't tell you what you want to know, because that level of detail isn't usually available, but taken together they will help mark out the border between what we actually know and our best guesses based on the available evidence.

A brewery in Yorkshire put out a pamplet on Towton that is very good.
Heath and Haigh are very useful but are a great example of why one should never use just one source.
A great period to enjoy.

Yes for the battle orders, it's not like this battle at the same time
TMP link

I just bought 11 well known booklets most on the WOTR, I also own hundreds of standards and banners and I will have to spend the rest of the year checking who was where, when and against whom …

Haigh's book is a great starting point's in getting into the Wars of roses.
It has all the battles, mentions many of the participants and a brief on the build up to each battle in one readable book.
Major B is correct however, some of Haigh's content is out of date, and Bosworth is totally out, but then all of the older books are!

It is interesting to read in the Haigh's book that in fact RIII would have been killed at the Battle of Bosworth by attacking Lord Thomas Stanley rather than being attacked by his brother, Sir William Stanley…