"English crossbowmen and handgunners." Topic

Hello everyone,

During the WOTR, there are any descriptions of purely English crossbowmen and handgunners among the retainers and indentured troops of the kings, nobility and gentry?
Thank you

I am not aware of any descriptions of English troops equipped with either crossbows or handguns in the WOTR.

There is very little, if any, evidence for the use of crossbows on the battlefield and handgunners are Burgundian mercenaries.

Didn't the Duke of Norfolks men demand that the Paston's men in Caister castle surrender their crossbows and quarrels? Sounds like somebody was using them. If memory serves, Paston wrote his wife asking her to procure a few so their must have been access to them close at hand.

Didn't the Duke of Norfolks men demand that the Paston's men in Caister castle surrender their crossbows and quarrels?

Yes. Note that I said "on the battlefield" which does not include sieges. Crossbows are quite good weapons in siege warfare.

Good point. I am skeptical about English forming crossbow units on the battlefield. I don't doubt that some men brought them and probably even handguns, but I think the longbow held almost entire sway. It was growing in popularity on the continent as well.

Yes, the guys in the castle (really more like a manor house?) had crossbows, and were outnumbered about 100:1.

30 vs. 3,000, if the report I read is accurate.

Apparently, there was one death (or severe injury on the second) on each side due to bow fire. I think I read one guy received a shot to/thru the head.

Supposedly, those besieging were more restrained that normal, since they wanted possession of the "castle", so the siege went on for quite some time.

Maybe there was a handful of each, as there was a little artillery sometimes?

Maybe there was a handful of each, as there was a little artillery sometimes?

No primary source material for that as far as I know. I fail to see what difference the presence or lack of artillery would make to the use of crossbows or handguns.
BTW, there was quite a lot or artillery at Northampton in 1460.

I wanted to say that artillery was not common in these wars but it nevertheless sometimes used, it is maybe the same for crossbows and handguns?

I wanted to say that artillery was not common in these wars but it nevertheless sometimes used,

Artillery was used at Ludford Bridge 1459, Northampton 1460, Second St Albans 1461, Barnet 1471 and Bosworth 1485. It is also possible that artillery was present at Blore Heath 1459, Wakefield 1460, Towton 1461 and Tewkesbury 1471. More than sometimes I think.
link

it is maybe the same for crossbows and handguns?

Handguns were used by the Burgundians at Second St Albans.

I thought Barry had posted something in the last year showing Crossbows listed in some contingents?

I thought Barry had posted something in the last year showing Crossbows listed in some contingents?

Yes, he did. But that doesn't prove that they were used on the battlefield.

'Yes, he did. But that doesn't prove that they were used on the battlefield.'

Another case of random brain cells coming together, Major?

In fairness to MajorB their that possibility, but then you open up a Pandora box of other possibilities.

If contemporaries say nothing, we will not know.

If you decide to put a few Crossbowmen into your Wars of roses armies no one could argue against it as no evidence exists either way, my feeling is there would have been some Crossbow's will have popped up somewhere on one or more of the battlefields, they were a powerful and far more accurate killing tool than a longbow, but not used in any numbers or specific Crossbow armed units.
The longbow was widely used and perhaps made any mention of the Crossbow insignificant!
Over to you MajorB

If you decide to put a few Crossbowmen into your Wars of roses armies no one could argue against it as no evidence exists either way,

Agreed. There is no evidence either way and of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

My view is that crossbows are unlikely on the battlefield simply due to their poor rate of fire, so if they were used at all they would have to have pavises or something similar behind which to reload, rather like handgunners.