"The Other Founders: The Legacy of Anti-Federalism" Topic

"The Anti-Federalists who opposed ratification of the Constitution have not fared well among American historians and political scientists. Nothing reveals more starkly the near-complete disinterest in Anti-Federalist thought than a bibliographical check of books and essays on the Constitution and the American political tradition published since the late nineteenth century. With the exception of Jonathan Elliot's Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Constitution (1836), which contains an assortment of letters and speeches by some of the Anti-Federalists in nine of the State ratifying conventions, and Paul Leicester Ford's limited selection of Anti-Federalist tracts in his Pamphlets on the Constitution (1888) and Essays on the Constitution (1892), only a handful of Anti-Federalist writings have been available to the modem reader; and scholarly studies of the Anti-Federalist critique of the Constitution have been virtually non-existent.

The noted historian, Cecelia M. Kenyon, probably spoke for most of her profession when, in a highly touted article published in 1955, she dismissed the Anti-Federalists as misguided provocateurs, or "men of little faith," who opposed the national democracy that had become the quintessential feature of American government, the assumption being that they deserved to be relegated to obscurity.

It is not difficult to understand why these "enemies of the Constitution" were often maligned as curious misfits. Americans love an underdog, but not a loser. In the struggle over the adoption of the Constitution, the Anti-Federalists were defeated in every State ratifying convention except North Carolina's—and after a second convention they lost there too. Then they promptly vanished from the American political scene, never to be seen again. The possibility that such a spasmodic event as Anti-Federalism could have exerted any lasting influence on the American political tradition seemed remote indeed. Added to this, their ideas and insights, even their prophesies, most of them scattered in old newspapers and recondite pamphlets, were soon forgotten. Lacking the organization and leadership of their opponents, the Anti-Federalists failed to produce a political or constitutional treatise that could match the appeal and substance of The Federalist. When Ford published his modest collection of Anti-Federalist Pamphlets on the Constitution in 1882, there were already twenty-nine editions of The Federalist extant, the first dating all the way back to 1788. To appreciate the original meaning and purpose of the Constitution, and virtually every clause in it, generations of Americans had worshiped The Federalist like hot gospel. But who was reading the blasphemous essays of "Brutus," the Letters of a Federal Farmer to the Republican, or any of the other Anti-Federalist writings on the Constitution that contradicted the sacred text of St. Publius?…"
Main page
link

Amicalement
Armand

And it should be noted that Jefferson did not support the Constitution while he was overseas as ambassador to France.

You really have it in for Jefferson, don't you?

Jefferson was opposed to the Constitution as drafted, and he ultimately talked Madison over to his side. He was far from the only prominent Virginia to oppose it. Patrick Henry was probably the second most prominent Virginian of the time after George Washington and he lead the fight against the Constitution. Aiding the anti-Federalist efforts was George Mason who had actually been a delegate to the Constitutional Convention, but had refused to sign off on it.

There isn't a one to one correlation, but the Democratic Republicans consisted of a core group of anti-Federalists. Since they dominated American politics from 1800 through 1824 its hardly accurate to say they were relegated to obscurity.

You really have it in for Jefferson, don't you?

Please explain how I 'have it in for Jefferson.'

Was something I wrote not factual? I don't think so.

The bottom line is that Jefferson is not one of the better US presidents, and his second term was disastrous. And he was one of the leading proponents of the War of 1812, supporting and influencing his protege Madison to go to war.

And he was no friend of the US armed forces, especially the navy.

I've never read anything you wrote in favor of Jefferson. Everything is negative.
I'm not exactly a fan either, but come on.
Try to dredge up at least one positive thing to say about him.

Did he know how to cook…? (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Maybe…

link

I've never read anything you wrote in favor of Jefferson. Everything is negative.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence and acquired the Louisiana Purchase.

Those two achievements don't outweigh his cowardice in the Revolution or his dismantling of the naval establishment of the United States or his aiding and abetting Madison getting into the War of 1812.

What does this have to do with the hobby? Tango01 is posting OT content that has no place here.

Jefferson wrote to Madison that he liked the Constitution very much, but it needed a Bill of Rights. He was close to Mason but closer to Madison, and would likely have supported ratification.

That ship has long ago sailed.
"Relevance to the hobby?"

Jefferson to Madison 20 December 1787

The season admitting only of operations in the Cabinet, and these being in a great measure secret, I have little to fill a letter. I will therefore make up the deficiency by adding a few words on the Constitution proposed by our Convention. I like much the general idea of framing a government which should go on of itself peaceably, without needing continual recurrence to the state legislatures. I like the organization of the government into Legislative, Judiciary & Executive. I like the power given the Legislature to levy taxes, and for that reason solely approve of the greater house being chosen by the people directly. For tho' I think a house chosen by them will be very illy qualified to legislate for the Union, for foreign nations &c. yet this evil does not weigh against the good of preserving inviolate the fundamental principle that the people are not to be taxed but by representatives chosen immediately by themselves. I am captivated by the compromise of the opposite claims of the great & little states, of the latter to equal, and the former to proportional influence. I am much pleased too with the substitution of the method of voting by persons, instead of that of voting by states: and I like the negative given to the Executive with a third of either house, though I should have liked it better had the Judiciary been associated for that purpose, or invested with a similar and separate power. There are other good things of less moment.

I will now add what I do not like. First the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly & without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal & unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land & not by the law of Nations. To say, as mr. Wilson does, that a bill of rights was not necessary because all is reserved in the case of the general government which is not given, while in the particular ones all is given which is not reserved, might do for the Audience to whom it was addressed, but is surely a gratis dictum, opposed by strong inferences from the body of the instrument, as well as from the omission of the clause of our present confederation which had declared that in express terms.2 It was a hard conclusion to say because there has been no uniformity among the states as to the cases triable by jury, because some have been so incautious as to abandon this mode of trial, therefore the more prudent states shall be reduced to the same level of calamity. It would have been much more just & wise to have concluded the other way that as most of the states had judiciously preserved this palladium, those who had wandered should be brought back to it, and to have established general right instead of general wrong. Let me add that a bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, & what no just government should refuse or rest on inference.3 The second feature I dislike, and greatly dislike, is the abandonment in every instance of the necessity of rotation in office, and most particularly in the case of the President. Experience concurs with reason in concluding that the first magistrate will always be re-elected if the constitution permits it. He is then an officer for life. This once observed it becomes of so much consequence to certain nations to have a friend or a foe at the head of our affairs that they will interfere with money & with arms. A Galloman or an Angloman will be supported by the nation he befriends. If once elected, and at a second or third election outvoted by one or two votes, he will pretend false votes, foul play, hold possession of the reins of government, be supported by the states voting for him, especially if they are the central ones lying in a compact body themselves & separating their opponents: and they will be aided by one nation of Europe, while the majority are aided by another. The election of a President of America some years hence will be much more interesting to certain nations of Europe than ever the election of a king of Poland was. Reflect on all the instances in history antient & modern, of elective monarchies, and say if they do not give foundation for my fears. The Roman emperors, the popes, while they were of any importance, the German emperors till they became hereditary in practice, the kings of Poland, the Deys of the Ottoman dependancies. It may be said that if elections are to be attended with these disorders, the seldomer they are renewed the better. But experience shews that the only way to prevent disorder is to render them uninteresting by frequent changes. An incapacity to be elected a second time would have been the only effectual preventative. The power of removing him every fourth year by the vote of the people is a power which will not be exercised. The king of Poland is removeable every day by the Diet, yet he is never removed. Smaller objections are the Appeal in fact as well as law, and the binding all persons Legislative Executive & Judiciary by oath to maintain that constitution. I do not pretend to decide what would be the best method of procuring the establishment of the manifold good things in this constitution, and of getting rid of the bad. Whether by adopting it in hopes of future amendment, or, after it has been duly weighed & canvassed by the people, after seeing the parts they generally dislike, & those they generally approve, to say to them ‘We see now what you wish. Send together your deputies again, let them frame a constitution for you omitting what you have condemned, & establishing the powers you approve. Even these will be a great addition to the energy of your government.' At all events I hope you will not be discouraged from other trials, if the present one should fail of it's full effect.

I have thus told you freely what I like & dislike: merely as a matter of curiosity, for I know your own judgment has been formed on all these points after having heard every thing which could be urged on them. I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive. The late rebellion in Massachusets has given more alarm than I think it should have done. Calculate that one rebellion in 13 states in the course of 11 years, is but one for each state in a century & a half. No country should be so long without one. Nor will any degree of power in the hands of government prevent insurrections. France, with all it's despotism, and two or three hundred thousand men always in arms has had three insurrections in the three years I have been here in every one of which greater numbers were engaged than in Massachusets & a great deal more blood was spilt. In Turkey, which Montesquieu supposes more despotic, insurrections are the events of every day. In England, where the hand of power is lighter than here, but heavier than with us they happen every half dozen years. Compare again the ferocious depredations of their insurgents with the order, the moderation & the almost self extinguishment of ours. After all, it is my principle that the will of the Majority should always prevail. If they approve the proposed Convention4 in all it's parts, I shall concur in it chearfully, in hopes that they will amend it whenever they shall find it work wrong. I think our governments will remain virtuous for many centuries; as long as they are chiefly agricultural; and this will be as long as there shall be vacant lands in any part of America. When they get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, they will become corrupt as in Europe. Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to; convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty. I have tired you by this time with my disquisitions & will therefore only add assurances of the sincerety of those sentiments of esteem & attachment with which I am Dear Sir your affectionate friend & servant

Th: Jefferson

Thanks!.

Amicalement
Armand