"British cavalry organization SYW" Topic

Hi guys, gotta question for you all. I'm still building some Allied units and they have three British cavalry regiments, Royal Horse Guards, 2nd (Royal North)Dragoons, and the 6th (Innskilling) Dragoons. Kronoskaf describes 5 Guard regts, 7 Regts of Horse, 15 Dragoons, and 7 Light Dragoons for the British cavalry. Koenig Krieg rules only shows 3 Horse Guards, 3 Horse, 16 Dragoon, and 3 Light Dragoon and only the 3 Guard and 3 Horse are classed as heavy horse. I'm guessing Kronoskaf is a little more accurate than the rules (snicker snicker) but how many heavies did the Brits have, which ones where they, and what was the organization? Kronoskaf only gives the number of squadrons but not the size of the squadrons.

4 or 5 years ago I also wondered about this question regarding the KK rules and Kronoskaf info. I don't now recall all that I found out about it but here is the correspondence I had with Siegeworks after my deliberations.

"I am considering raising a British Guard Cavalry brigade and I have been puzzling over something in the Army lists. It says that you can raise 3 units of British Guard cavalry, now I only plan to have 1, the Royal Horse Guards (Blues) but I wondered what the other 2 units would be. Horse Grenadiers were only 2 troops (although they were over strength troops) and I suppose the other could be the combined Household /Lifeguard cavalry who stayed in Britain.
Which 3 units do you think the lists refer to?"

Reply
"Yes the other Guard regiments and troops all stayed in Britain; however in 1756-7 there was the possibility of a French invasion. If they had em, you can field em :) Although this is not exactly historical."

So looking at Kronoskaf,the first 4 listed units are only 1 troop large (albeit ‘over strength'), the only viable unit is the Royal Horse Guards which are 3 sqdns rather than the normal 2 of the other cavalry.

I don't think I looked into the other cavalry regiments so can only help with the Guards part of your question.

Ok I am really bored as Wales is on lockdown so I have looked into your question a bit more, Can I suggest you get James Woods "Armies and Uniforms of the Seven Years War vol 1" if you don't already have it.

Page 62: British Cavalry : Each regiment consisted of 3 sqdns ( usually only 2 in the field) Each sqdn had two troops. Each troop had 67 men all ranks = 402 men. Of course no one agrees so others say more troops per = 603 per regt and that line cavalry had 600.
At the start of the war a light troop was added ( 67 men) except to the Royal Horse Guards and the Irish Horse regts . In service these were detached and grouped into Sqds similar to what happened to Foot grenadiers Otherwise it was just the 15th Kings Light dragoons, 6 troops=432 men.

Sent out To Germany:

Guard :
Royal Horse Guards 3 sqns

Dragoon Guards ( so heavy):
1st Kings 3 sqdns
2nd Queens 2 sqds
3rd Prince of Wales 2 sqdns

Irish Horse ( heavy) all 2 sqds
2nd Irish Horse ( 5th Dragoon Guards
3rd Irish Horse ( 6th DG)
4th Irish Horse (7th DG )

Dragoons ( all 2 sqds)
1st Royal
2nd Royal North (the Greys) mine all have the wrong hats
6th Inniskilling
7th Queens
10th
11th

Light Dragoons
15th Kings Light 4 sqdns

Other regiments ( especially dragoons) were sent elsewhere ( Ireland ) or just stayed at home ( 1st Irish Horse etc )

And with the exception of the 15th Light Dragoons, all of the above listed cavalry was considered heavy battlefield cavalry. But even the 15th was used as battlefield cavalry on occasion.

The British cavalry entered Germany in two contigents:

First (1758-1759): Royal Horse Guards (Blues) [3 sqdns], 1st King's Dragoon Guards [3 sqdns], 3rd Dragoon Guards [2 sqdns], 2nd Royal North British Dragoons (Scots Grays) [2 sqdns], 6th Inniskilling Dragoons [2 sqdns], and 10th Dragoons [2 sqdns]

Second (1760): 2nd Horse (Irish, later 5th Dragoons Guards) [2 sqdns], 3rd Horse (Carabiniers, later the 6th Dragoon Guards; wore breastplate) [2 sqdns], 4th Horse (later 7th Dragoon Guards) [2 sqdns], 2nd Queen's Dragoon Guards [2 sqdns], 1st Royal Dragoons [2 sqdns], 7th Queen's Own Dragoons [2 sqdns], 11th Dragoons [2 sqdns], and 15th Light Dragoons [ 4 sqdns].

{Source: His Britannic Majesty's Army in Germany by Reginald Savary}

Jim

Thank you, both for your assistance.

I like the KK rules overall but I don't think the authors knew that much about the organization of the various armies of the period and what different types of troops were used for, i.e. light lancers such as Cossacks and Bosniaks are not allowed to charge (why give them lances if they don't use them). I use the rules with a few minor modifications, mainly in the size of the units, rather than Prussian heavies being 12 figures on 6-2 figure stands I have them 15 figures on 5-3 figure stands. I also play with the Austrian cavalry slightly and have 6-3 figure stands, with one stand, the elites, normally detached and brigaded together so Austrian heavies and dragoons are normally 5-3figure stands on the tabletop. The regular hussars I give 18 figures on 6-3figure stands and Grenz hussars are broken up into regimental units of 2 squadrons of 2 figures each. Tactically there are two such squadrons per Grenz regiment and I currently have two regiments. Again I don't understand why these rules don't allow the Grenz hussars to charge but I live with that.

No problem I hope it was of some help.
Regarding light cavalry/Cossacks, they can charge in KK
Cavalry are broken down into two groups, Formed or Skirmish: Cossacks/Grenz cavalry are classed as irregular so are therefore in the skirmish section. Light cavalry could be in both if formed or if skirmishing.

Page 32 of KK version 3 rules
Skirmishing cavalry in Close Combat:
LC in skirmish, all irregulars and camels have 1 action so can pick from the following
1. Charge
2. Change Facing
3. Change Formation
4. Evade
5. Tap out
Must be in close combat range to charge, if charging against infantry then take a break bayonets test (lances help here).
Admittedly they are not given much help in combat bonuses but they can charge.

v4 rules being more generic allows everyone to charge and irregulars only get a mention in the charts for morale and combat. Again skirmishing cavalry can charge. I haven't played this version of the rules yet so I am not so upto date on what's in them.

There was some mention in TMP a while back re: KK v4. Someone said that the cost was around 65$ which seems a wee bit excessive to me. They also opined that the differences between v3 and v4 did not warrant such an exorbitant price, I think I only paid about $20 USD for an original copy of v3 back in the 70s and I got a fresh copy of v3 from a friend a few years later for $20 USD as well. Does anyone have any updated info regarding price and availability?

Looking on their website the Version 4 rules are in Hardback and are 65 Australian Dollars so convert to your local currency, I think it cost me around £35.00 GBP and Free Postage!

"Please note, books are printed on demand and take up to 7-14 days to arrive. Expect delays due to Christmas rush and Christmas Holiday Opening Hours!

This book is postage FREE. To apply the Free postage when you get the postage point at the checkout type in 'local'. No postage charge will be asked. However, if you are having trouble with this just email me at info@siegeworksstudios.com.au or pay the postage and I will refund the postage when I process the order. Either way we will look after you guys"

link

As I said I haven't played them yet and my first read through was a little disappointing, I thought that they had lost the 7YW flavour replaced for a more generic feel to cover more periods. The link above explains the new much larger range of eras.

Subsequent re-reads however has changed my mind somewhat,all the old rules are still there but some of the improvements are worth incorporating and I will use them initially in my own'3.5 version'.
Off the top of my head the two that spring to mind are :
If both players roll a 1 for initiative during the M&V turn then it stops, this encourages you to prioritise.
You only roll once for initiative during the C&V phase, the difference in score is how many units the winner can activate before you take alternate turns, this speeds up play and still rewards the better rated general on average.

there are other improvements I liked eg.expanding on generals ,engineering and other stuff but I would need to re-read them again which I am not going to do now.

ColCampbell is exactly right. A few supplementary comments to his post.

In the British army all of the Horse (inc Horse Guards), Dragoon Guards and Dragoons had all evolved into heavy cavalry in the WAS and SYW. There was no functional difference between them, and their men and horses were all of very similar (large) size- standing taller than most continental cuirassiers. The Blues, 3rd and 4th Horse all wore half-cuirasses under their coats in Germany in the SYW.

The Dragoons and Dragoon Guards formed light troops at the beginning of the war but these were soon detached. They were used in coastal raids on France but not in Germany, where the only light cavalry was the 15th LD.

The Troops of Horse Guards (not to be confused with the Regiment of Horseguards or Blues) and Troops of Horse Grenadiers all stayed at home in the SYW- but some had fought in the WAS.

Squadrons were usually of three troops each in the SYW and all went on service- unlike the Napoleonic wars. There were two big 9 Troop Regiments- the Blues and KDGs formed three squadrons.

Main thing to remember about the British (and Hanoverian) cavalry of this era is that they were much better mounted than more or less any of their allies or opponents, but seemed less prone to the lack of control notable in the Napoleonic wars.

Just took a look at KK v4 and they are trying to push them back to war AS and all the way forward to American Civil war. I guess they are trying to make them go head to head with Black Powder rules.

Lose all the detail when you paint with too broad a brush.