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"Owen Tudor - livery and badges?" Topic


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MacColla24 Oct 2020 1:51 a.m. PST

Does anyone here have any information (an educated guess, even) on the livery colours and livery badges of Owen Tudor? I have information for Jasper Tudor and Henry VII but cannot find anything on Owen.

Huscarle24 Oct 2020 7:46 a.m. PST

I thought that the Tudors used Argent & Vert as their livery colours?

GurKhan24 Oct 2020 10:31 a.m. PST

"The Red Dragon was used as his badge by Henry VII's grandfather, Sir Owen Tudor, who took it as a token of his supposed descent from Cadwalader, the last native ruler of Britain." – from link

I have no idea what evidence there might be for that statement.

A flag for Owen Tudor is listed in one of the Freezywater flag sheets – WRF 33 listed at PDF link

MacColla24 Oct 2020 1:04 p.m. PST

Thank you both. The Hampton Court link is very useful – even without evidence it reads as though carefully researched and is good enough for me. I know Henry Tudor used Argent and Vert but Citadel Six have Jasper Tudor as Gules and Azure (with a broom cod as livery badge).
Thank you again.

Warspite125 Oct 2020 4:40 p.m. PST

@MacColla:
Most colours and badges pass from father to son during this period.

A rare exception was the York family where Richard Duke of York's blue and white was changed to blue and murrey (blood red) in reference to the death of Richard and their brother Edmund at Wakefield. The white half was metaphorically dipped in the family's spilt blood.

MacColla26 Oct 2020 3:53 a.m. PST

Thank you too Barry. I'm painting my Owen Tudor retinue in white and green. I shall go with red and blue for Jasper Tudor on my theory that he assumed those colours along with the coat of arms incorporating the arms of England.
Thanks again.

Warspite129 Oct 2020 4:10 p.m. PST

@MacColla:

I would stick with white and green.
Given that his father and his nephew Henry Tudor later used white and green, Jasper almost certainly used the same.
Remember that although his shield was quarterly France and England (within a bordure in blue with golden martlets) these shield colours rarely, if ever, translate to a livery colour.

As a maternal half-brother of Henry VI he MIGHT have used the Lancastrian white/blue colours as these colours were shared with the Beauforts (Dukes of Somerset) who also had royal blood and also used a version of the royal coat of arms with a bordure for difference.
However as we know nephew Henry/Henry VII did not use Beaufort colours but the traditional Tudor colours, the chances of Jasper going for something different are slim. When Owen was executed and Henry's father Edmund died of plague Jasper took over the 'family business' and cared for its heir the future Henry VII. This further removes the chances of a separate Jasper livery.

Remember also that, as second son, Jasper should display a crescent moon on his shield as a cadency mark to distinguish him from his father.
But as he did not use his father Owen's shield:
link
but a new one granted directly from Henry VI the cadency mark would almost certainly have been dispensed with as confusing while also alluding to his questionable family history. In heraldic terms he was no longer his father's son, he was the king's half-brother. It was a fresh start for his shield but he was free to retain his father's livery and probably did.

Details on cadency here: link

Barry

Warspite129 Oct 2020 5:47 p.m. PST

@MacColla:
And as for Owen's livery badge your best option is a helmet argent (white) as per the Owen Tudor shield shown in my previous reply. There is precedent for shield devices turning up as badges such as Oxford's five-pointed star (mullet) or the Stafford knot.

So Owen's troops might be liveried in white (on our left, their right), green on our right and a white helmet on the green which also follows the basic laws of heraldry in not placing a tincture on a tincture. Argent is a metal and may be placed on any tincture (colour).

Barry

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