"The Man in the high castle" Topic

I've been watching the show and I'm in the third season, my question is, does anyone think that could happen, would America really accept the NAZI ideology in less then 20 years. Would America really run death camps and bug rooms, Gestapo, killing people who are sick or crippled. And second question is, if the resistance won would America give up all of the ideology it was forced to believe.

I haven't watched the series and no I don't think it would happen like that, but …

You know it's based on a famous Philip K. Dick novel, right?
The Man In the High Castle: link
Philip K. Dick: link

Much much much has been written about Dick and his works and they have been the basis of many films, but I'll say simply his works concern the nature of reality and introspection about ourselves.

Realism though, is not what he writes about.

The fascist ideology appeals to people who think democracies are weak, and need a 'strong man' to lead the way. Fascism also portrays itself as the opposite of communism/socialism, and the 'only way' to stand up against communist thugs/gangs.

So for fascism to appeal, you need enough people to believe political parties aren't working and/or feel threatened by militant leftists.

(I'm reading a book on pre-WWII USA currently.)

It can't happen here?
Think again. I'm scared.

"Would America really run death camps and bug rooms, Gestapo, killing people who are sick or crippled."

I've neither read the book or seen the show. However, I'm sorry to say I think this could happen in this country. Leaving aside modern events, (which have become nasty enough), I'll look at recent history.

We were actually moving, albeit slower than Germany, in this direction in the 1930s. There were forced sterilizations for people considered 'inferior' such as those with what would now be called developmentally challenged. Planned Parenthood was founded with the idea of stopping black people from reproducing. Etc.

The holocaust was, in my opinion, the natural outgrowth of Darwin's theory on evolution as it was understood at the time. After all, the full name of the book is: "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

Finding people willing to kill those they consider inferior would, I'm sorry to say, be all too easy. The sickness humans are capable of never ceases to amaze me.

First question – Given politics and economics at the time, a significant number undoubtedly would have. And an equally significant number probably would have just knuckled under. Though I'd caveat that with the existence of considerable geographic variation. Socialists would have resisted though to what extent they might enjoy popular support is debateable since the first Red Scare was within living memory.

Its worth bearing in mind the extent to which countries across Europe and the world, other than Germany, Italy and Spain, were flirting with extreme right-wing politics during the period leading up to WWII.

Second question rather presupposes that Americans would need to be forced to believe the ideology in the first place…

Like Moore's Bring the Jubilee, Dick flips history and reality rather too neatly for my taste. Everything is the political flip side of real 1962. But as for the citizens of the United States adopting a totalitarian ideology--yes, of course they can. 1941 America did not lack for Nazi sympathizers--nor for Stalinists.

Check today's news feed for the current silencing speakers on campus, and of black-clad mobs in the streets--organized and justified by left-wing totalitarians, and see how long you go without hearing that Hitler Youth in Cabaret singing "Tomorrow Belongs to Me."

In 1910 Germany was one of the richest, best educated and most advanced nations in Europe – who would have predicted 1933? I think one of the most interesting aspects in The Man in the High Castle is how John Smith evolves in the High Castle world versus the parallel (i.e. our) world – which he seems to appreciate as the show develops

Loss and desperation do bad things to people

Robert, don't forget those right wingers who were just arrested for plotting to kidnap the governor of Michigan. There are really bad guys on both sides.

Authoritarianism generally comes about as citizens are willing to trade certain liberties, usually belonging to "some other bunch" for perceived safety and security.

Putin in Russia, Erdogan in Turkey, Chavez/Maduro in Venezuela, Orban in Hungary, Duterte in the Philippines and Bolsonaro in Brazil are all examples of creeping authoritarianism in what were initially functioning democracies. While none of those states have reached the death camp level they all have to one extent of another restricted a free press, sanctioned extra-judicial killings, suppressed opposition and fudged their electoral processes.

Ben Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

This often gets misused for silly things while ignoring the word essential but a free press, the right to trial and not jailing opponents are essential. Countries that have forgotten this such as Venezuela, Russia and Turkey have or are in the process of losing both.

I've watched all seasons of the show and it does explore how and why Smith (and the USA) becomes the man he does in the alternate reality. It is all pretty believable and no different to what happened in occupied Europe.

A little too much (ill-informed) modern politics slipping in here…

Fascism isn't a right-or-left thing, at least as modern politics defines the two. The truth is that any political bent can embrace the concept of a centralized government running everything and eliminating ("cancelling") their opposition.
A socialist can be just as fascistic in behavior as an avowed fascist (and, in fact, the vast majority of such states are totalitarian). If you believe it's okay to bully common people into kowtowing to your preferred point-of-view on any given subject, then it doesn't matter what your point-of-view is or what political or economic system you tout as being at the core of it-- you have become a fascist. And if you argue that you're just fighting racism/bigotry/white privilege/sexism/climate change/colonization, etc., and therefore your actions are justified, then *you* are the fascist. You want people to agree with you, and you're willing to attack them, or stand by and let them be attacked, if they don't. That is the core of fascism. The rest is just whatever sauce the bullies prefer.

What is NOT fascistic is a legitimate choice made at a ballot box. As long as America holds to the principle of fair, clean and honest elections, then fascism cannot take hold. So it can only happen here if we let it.

One could argue that the rise of Fascism and what morphed out Marxism in the thirties was more to do with opportunist thug then ideology.

lloydthegamer – keep up with the news. They were not right-wingers. They were BLM supporters.

They were not right-wingers. They were BLM supporters.

Source? While some seem to be pure anarchists (of the I'm a failure at everything, burn it all down rather than ideology) the majority are associated with two militias, both of which are clearly on the right side of the spectrum although playing dress up operators is not truly conservative as much as pathetic.

Fox News called them right wingers and quotes both the FBI and the Michigan AG as describing them as such.

link

To DN Jackson- concerning Germany's Eugenics programs in the 1930s. Well, no. The reality is that the US was actually quite ahead of Germany in most of these programs. I think the Nazis actually commented on this with some admiration.

To Parzival… concerning Fascism being neither left nor right… Kind of… The Nazi were hard core centrists. Very hard core. While having some socialist views, they rejected most of the Marxist theories as nonsense. They allowed private property, religion, labor unions (though controlled closely). They were pro-family, anti-pornography and anti-globalist. Definitely not Libertarians!

So… very aggressive, hardcore, militant centrists!

Joe Collins

Got to love Duffleblog.

link

There were a large number of Nazi sympathizers in the US before WWII.

"Would America really run death camps and bug rooms, Gestapo, killing people who are sick or crippled."

If it ever reached that point, unless all the guns were taken away, there would be a lot of dead Gestapo…

"If it ever reached that point, unless all the guns were taken away, there would be a lot of dead Gestapo…"

This is the wet dream of every clown that shows up at State house with their assault weapon. Such a utter myths about ourselves "we talk just like lions, but we sacrifice like lambs"