"Former SS men in the French Foreign Legion" Topic

Just how many former SS men really were in the French Foreign Legion during the Indochina war? How many were Germans but not former SS? I guess what I'm asking is, is there any had data on the composition of the French expeditionary force of that era. And how many former Japanese soldiers were in the Viet Minh?

I read several books on this premise. Some were factual and others fiction. One was based on interviews with an ex-German soldier.

Yes Rudy is correct and I've read some of those books. Some of the Germans were Hitler Youth so IIRC that was SS. Some were German Vets of WWII from a number of branches. And other armies for that matter.

I've never heard of any Japanese serving with the Viet Minh. But there were a number in French Indochina when the war ended. I thought they were rounded up and put in POW Camps. The first forces in Indochina after the war were UK and Indian Army units. The French came a little later

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Minh

wikipedia says 600 Japanese in the Viet Minh.

When I was on a Med Cruise in 1974 we stopped at Corsica for a three day operation with the FFL 2nd Para. One of the FFL Company Commanders was a former German Officer (unknown if SS) who lost a thumb in France and an eye in VN.

Wolfhag

Les légionnaires Allemands dans la Guerre d'Indochine – From ARTE (French TV) 2009

YouTube link

80% of the "légionnaires" were Germans.

600 Japanese in the Viet Minh.

I had no idea and I studied both wars in Indochina. Learn something new everyday ! But it does make some sense … They may have felt were they were still at war with the Allies, e.g. including the French, etc. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." … Thanks for the intel !

I had read this before, Japanese troops came under UK command to fight the Viet Minh uprising, '45-'46 … link UK, Indian, Japanese, Vietnamese colonial troops and some re armed former Vichy French, were engaging the Viet Minh during this time period.

80% of the "légionnaires" were Germans.

I had not heard a number that large but again, it does makes some sense …

This is generally what I had believed from my studies … from the internet –

France had lost hundreds and thousands of soldiers and had a fractured population. All their former colonies had been taken over by Japanese or other nations imprisoning or killing the French garrisons.

The French needed to control and police their foreign colonies and therefore needed to bolster their destroyed foreign legion. What better way than recruiting battle hardened, trained young men whose homes had gone, whose families were dead, those that needed a new home and a job. Being a soldier comes easy to many who know nothing else and the Hitler youth provided pre trained youth into the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS who then went to war. They had no civilian trade and they knew nothing else.

The FFL gave them a job, home, food, family and welcomed them with open arms. They qualified, as they do now, with French citizenship after 5 years service but many died fighting in French Indo China (Vietnam), Algeria and many other hot spots.

They left their mark in the legion. Many marching songs were sang that were actually German songs and originally in German although now the lyrics are french.

Another good link

It's my understanding the the enlisted in the FFL are foreigners, not French. That's why it's called the Foreign Legion. Their job was to do the dirty work in the French colonies overseas. The French are the officers.

The ones I saw were mostly German, Polish, and Russian. There was one Brit. They looked older and more mature than us. They got a what looked like a 3-4 ounce bottle of Cognac in their rations. They didn't share.

They liked to play rough too. The cruise before us they "captured" a Marine and strung him up from a tree upside down.

We had a great party on the beach the night before we shipped out. The next day a contingent of 2nd Para met us on the flight deck of the USS Guam and pinned a pennant on our Company flag making us "honorary" Legionaires.

The French still exert some influence and financial leverage in their former colonies in Africa. That's why you still see them in some areas with the FFL protecting their interests.

Wolfhag

I thought anybody could join the FFL. All you to do is provide a name. Maybe this has changed.

I think we'll never get definitive figures for how many Germans/former SS entered the FFL in the late 40s. They didn't keep records. All evidence is going to be anecdotal.

That said – I would be very surprised if large numbers of former SS did NOT try to disappear into the FFL. I think some former collaborators also did – but it's just anecdotal again.

It's hard to speculate why Japanese joined the Viet Minh. Not every Japanese soldier supported the Empire. Many Japanese were left wing or even communist. Naturally they kept a tight lip about this during the war years. The Viet Minh was not particularly communist anyway. Many people would support Vietnamese independence in the 1940s. Pity the US didn't support Ho Chi Minh post 1945, but I gather Truman had to appease the French.

I thought anybody could join the FFL. All you to do is provide a name.

The Officers are French obviously. However AFAIK you can join the FFL if you are French you just use another name and say you are from any French speaking country. A joke was the Germans that joined said they were Swiss.

I think we'll never get definitive figures for how many Germans/former SS entered the FFL in the late 40s.

Based on all the anecdotal evidence. Even mentioned in Fall's "Street Without Joy". A Must Read on the wars in Indochina.

Cleary there were some Germans in the FFL before the war and after. Even during WWII the Reich took Germans from the Vichy FFL and sent them to the 361st PG Regt, 90th Lgt Div in North Africa.

The 361st Regiment contained 300 Germans who had previously served in the French Foreign Legion; who were usually considered unworthy of service but brought about by the Wehrmacht's incessant need for additional troops.[2][3]

link

It's hard to speculate why Japanese joined the Viet Minh. Not every Japanese soldier supported the Empire. Many Japanese were left wing or even communist. Naturally they kept a tight lip about this during the war years.

Very true and this is little known to most. Even some Japanese in their military were Christian, albeit it small numbers. And so may have thought like some of the Germans. There was really nothing to go back home for, etc.

Pity the US didn't support Ho Chi Minh post 1945, but I gather Truman had to appease the French.

Even the US OSS Tms that were infiltrated into Vietnam and assisted Ho and his Guerillas against the IJFs. Pretty much AFAIK the US OSS Tms said it would help Ho get independence from France after the war. Why did Truman let the French regain their colonies in Indochina ? And it is said pushed many Europeans, etc., to give their colonies some level or total independence after the war ?

So it may have avoided 2 wars had the Vietnamese been given their independence from France ? However there was also the CCP & USSR support for Ho in it's insurgency against the IJFs.

As well as fighting the French, the Việt Minh started a campaign against the Japanese. As of the end of 1944, the Việt Minh claimed a membership of 500,000, of which 200,000 were in Tonkin, 150,000 in Annam, and 150,000 in Cochinchina. Due to their opposition to the Japanese, the Việt Minh received funding from the United States, the Soviet Union and the Republic of China.

I think the US/Truman like Churchill and many others saw the next problem would be with the Communists. Actively trying to turn much of Europe, the Far East, etc., into the Communists' sphere. In many places there were both Nationalists and Communists guerilla groups in France, Italy, the PI, etc. So it maybe Ho's movement was thought to be going the way of the Communists ?

The Việt Minh was considered by the Communist Party of Vietnam as a form of national independence front in Vietnam, it was also known as the Việt Minh's Independent Allied Front, Việt Minh Front.[3] The Việt Nam Độc Lập Đồng Minh Hội is not be confused with the Việt Nam Cách Mạng Đồng Minh Hội (League for the Vietnamese Revolution, abbreviated as Việt Cách) which was founded by Nguyễn Hải Thần and Hồ Ngoc Lam. It later joined the Vietnamese National Coalition in 1946.

Both these quotes are from the link Skarper posted about the Viet Minh above.

As well as the US was trying to appease the French.

The fear of communism in the far east really started after the end of the Chinese civil war. For sure, there were Soviet influences and Communist Chinese influences on Ho Chi Minh – he would take help from any quarter.

If the US had made good on its promises we still don't know how it would have played out long term. I suspect there would still have been an American war at some point.

The fear of communism in the far east really started after the end of the Chinese civil war. For sure, there were Soviet influences and Communist Chinese influences on Ho Chi Minh

Like I said with partisans in the ETO, PI, etc., having both Nationalist and Communist cells/groups, during WWII. Many of leaders in the West even knew of the Communist threat with the fall of the Czar and Russia during WWI. As well as after. E.g. the US, UK, etc., even sent troop to help the "White Russians" against the "Reds" in 1919-1919. The Communists made it clear of their intentions.

Ho Chi Minh – he would take help from any quarter.

He would and did, as I said even from the US OSS Tms, etc. That is understandable in his situation.

They were nothing new during WWII, as we know. E.g. even the Nationalists Chinese were fighting Mao's Communists and the IJFs during the war. We even thought about supporting Mao as well the Nationalists. As it appeared Mao's Communists were doing a better job fighting the Japanese than the Nationalist Chinese.

No I have to disagree the West was concerned about the Communists even during WWII.

I hate to quote "facts" without quoting sources but I have read so many books on Vietnam that they all run together.
to the author's original question there were very few german ss in the FFL in Vietnam; estimated at less than 20%. The average age of the FFL trooper was 26, too young to have fought. It is true that all german WW II vets claimed to be " swiss" upon enlistment.
all officers in the legion are french
Roosevelt was just as concerned about western colonialism as eastern communism.
Truman after Yalta was concerned about communism over everything else. At least based on my readings.

Joe

"Pity the US didn't support Ho Chi Minh post 1945, but I gather Truman had to appease the French."

Well, the US didn't want Vietnam to fall to the communists. Ho was a committed communist. or example:

In December 1920, Quốc (Ho) became a representative to the Congress of Tours of the Socialist Party of France, voted for the Third International and was a founding member of the French Communist Party.

In 1923, Quốc (Ho) left Paris for Moscow carrying a passport with the name Chen Vang, a Chinese merchant,[5]:86 where he was employed by the Comintern, studied at the Communist University of the Toilers of the East[5]:92[30] and participated in the Fifth Comintern Congress in June 1924 before arriving in Canton (present-day Guangzhou), China in November 1924 using the name Ly Thuy.

I think the Ho Chi Minh = committed communist is only partially true. Also, there were other elements within the independence movement. Had the US opened a dialogue in 1945 some things might have been different.

I don't think Truman was really running the show in 1945. All presidents are very much at the mercy of public opinion and what advice they get. Truman more so than most.

to the author's original question there were very few german ss in the FFL in Vietnam; estimated at less than 20%. The average age of the FFL trooper was 26, too young to have fought. It is true that all german WW II vets claimed to be " swiss" upon enlistment.

Agreed, as that very much is how I understood it. Some former Hitler Youth Div. members were in the FFL and that Div. was SS. In the later stages of the war many young Germans in their early teens even were in the fight. As Hitler Youth or other units. WWII in the ETO ended in Apr/May of '45. The French started to send troops to Indochina, later in '45 and '46 on until '54.

So consider if you were a 19-20 year old German soldier, sailor, etc. in '44 or '45. You certainly could have joined the FFL in '45 or 46 or later. And still be of "combat age" per se. And nothing says a 25-30 year old German soldier that has been fighting since, '39 or 40 or later. Could not join the FFL E.g. A 19 year old in '39- 40' would be 25 or 26 in '45 They could join the FFL and some did.

E.g. Even a 35 year old German could have easily joined the FFL after being in the German forces since the early years of the war. So yes the average age of 26 is viable. Again, that would make a 19 year old German in '40, would be 25 in e.g. '46 …

The math works out. And again no doubt some Germans did … And even if you were a 30 or 35 year old German in '45. You still could serve in the FFL. Again, some did … and some may have been or were SS. Generally their age may not really have a consideration, they French need all they could get. And some of them, not all had combat experience. Even if only in '45.

all officers in the legion are french

Yes and even certain FFL enlisted who had served for 5 years[IIRC]. Became French citizens and in turn became officers in the FFL.

Roosevelt was just as concerned about western colonialism as eastern communism.
Truman after Yalta was concerned about communism over everything else.

That is what I have read studied, etc. The USSR "Russian Red" forces were huge in '45. And they were everywhere, even the CBI/PTO, including China/Mongolia, Korea, Islands off the coast of Japan, etc. Again many leaders e.g. Churchill, were concerned about what was going to happen with the Communist forces after the war. In many/most places they were during the war they stayed/kept, e.g. much of Eastern Europe.

I think the Ho Chi Minh = committed communist is only partially true.

Regardless he took support from the Communists. And that was enough for the US and UK, etc. The USSR taking and keeping so much land only fueled the West's concern.

Had the US opened a dialogue in 1945 some things might have been different.

And what would the French be doing ?

I don't think Truman was really running the show in 1945. All presidents are very much at the mercy of public opinion and what advice they get. Truman more so than most.

That may not be totally true. He understood the Communist threat as well as many others. He had many advisors, etc.

Not doubt, one of his reasons but not the only one for nuking Japan. Was the losses the US would have taken capturing the Japanese Mainland. No one would reelect a POTUS who had a way to save a million plus US lives but didn't use it.

Plus this also demonstrated the power the US had. And at that time Stalin, the Communists threat, didn't …

The involvement of Mao and the Communists in the Sino-Japanese conflict was ….. shall we say ….. complicated. Mao essentially played both ends against the middle, encouraging the Japanese to focus upon the KMT, while he and his Communist faction bided their time and worked to recover from the severe losses they had earlier suffered at the hands of the KMT.

Interesting synopsis here – link

The Chinese Communist party of today doesn't like to discuss their "special relationship with the Japanese during WW2.

B

I suggest you all take a look at Bernard Fall regarding German or SS in the Legion

Yes his book "Street Without Joy" addresses that as well as his book "Hell In a Very Small Place", IIRC. Must reads if interested in the French Indochina War.

I'm posting below what I posted on another forum in reply to a smiliar question:

The "German Legion of SS & Fallschirmjäger", the "Sturmbattalions at Dien Bien Phu where orders were given in German", … fighting the Indochina War in place of the French is (mostly) a myth. Actually, it was one crafted and repeatedly used by the French communist party and the Soviet press to denounce France's dirty war against their Vietnamese brothers.

But as always with every legend, it has a root of truth.
Indochina during & after WW2 accounted for a lot of German légionnaires, for several reasons:

When WW2 broke in Europe, the Légion, as is its way, offered German & Italian légionaires to be reposted outside of Europe in order not to be placed in a position to fight their own. Légionnaires whom took the offer where transfered to N. Africa and the 3rd REI in Indochina. And when France capitulated, and Germany asked for German Légionnaires to be delivered to it, the Légion managed to move most of those still in N. Africa to Indochina.
Therefore, but for some die-hard anti-fascists Germans & Italians which remained in Europe, many of whom would later form the nucleaus of the Free French 13e DBLE (alongside Republican Spaniards and many Frenchmen escaped from occupied France), most of the Légion's German volunteers were concentrated in the 3e REI in Indochina during WW2.
When Japan staged its March 9th, 1945 coup against the French colonial administration in Indochina, many of those légionnaires were killed or captured.
After Japan's capitulation, France (with British help) returned to Indochina and the 3e REI was reinstated as the Légion's traditionnal unit in Indochina (many others would join in later: 13e DBLE, 2nd & 5e REI, 1er REC and, of course, the legendary 1er & 2nd BEP of RC4 & DBP fame). Most surviving German légionnaires were repatriated in Europe.
That's the end of the first chapter of the "German Légion" in Indochina.

When the Indochina War broke between France and the Vietminh, Légion recruiting officer did tour Wehrmacht POW camps to offer those men a way out through a three-year contract with the Légion. French POW camps in 1945-1946, when France was in ruins and the civilian population starving, weren't a nice place to be, hence many German POWs volunteered.
But they were Wehrmacht, not SS or FJ, which were theoratically banned from enlisting. In theory only, for as long as one wasn't clearly identified as SS, the Légion wasn't too picky (as always). But SS were never ACTIVELY seeked (they made just under 10% of the German volunteers, not even the whole légionnaires), nor were French collaborators. The latter would only be granted the chance to enlist in the BILOM, a penal unit with no promise of sentence reduction, although at the end of their three-years contract, volunteers were accepted in the Légion when BILOM was disbanded.
In 1949, at the end of their three-year contract, most of the German volunteers returned to Europe, with only a few staying in Indochina where they would form, with two more years under their belt, a strong core of NCOs (aside from outstanding individuals, no one becomes an NCO before 5 years in the Légion).
That's the end of the second chapter of the "German Légion" in Indochina.

By then, a new batch of German volunteers enlisted, but they were very young: 18-20 years old, most of them had been at best in the Hitlerjugend (the organization, not the division) during WW2, but not soldiers. Germany was in an even worst shape than France in the first years after 1945 and for many young Germans with no prospect of living or even surviving in Germany, enlisting in the Légion was a way to survive. And with France being an occupying power in Germany, Légion recruiting offices were easy to find in Germany and thus enlisted droves of desperate youths between 1946-49.
But those men, whom would fight most major battles of the Indochina War (RC4, Day River, Na San, Dien Bien Phu), had nothing to do with SS, FJ or collaborators. And unlike their predecessors, many would reenlist at the end of their contract, having found in the Légion something of a family they had lost at home. At the same time, with the situation in Germany improving, the pool of German volunteers slowly diminished, replaced by early escapees from communist East-European countries (many Hungarians & Poles, some Russians, Ukrainians, …) before the Iron Curtain fell on them.

Over the course of the Indochina War (1946-1954), volunteers to the Légion can broken down as follow:
* Germanic (German-speaking Swiss, Germans & Austrians): 46% of foreigners / 34% overall Légion (French included, with cadres).
* Latin (Italian & Spanish): 26% / 22%
* Anglo-Saxons: <1% / <1%
* East-Europeans: 12% / <1%
* Other Europeans (Dutch, Belgians, Greeks, …): 12% / 10%
* the rest being Frenchmen or French-speaking foreigners.
The breaking down is based on languages instead of nationalities, for the nationality given by the volunteers can be false. Otherwise, Switzerland, Belgium & Monaco (easy fake countries for French willing to avoid declaring their true identity) would be the greatest providers of légionnaires ever! :)

With an estimate 70.000 légionnaires serving in Indochina over the course of the war, 38% of "Germanic" volunteers (including non-German German-speaking nationals) means around 26.000 men. Of whom only under 10% of the FIRST BATCH only (1946-1949) may have been SS.

Therefore, we are far from the "entire SS battalion defending Indochina for France" myth … just enough to feed communist propaganda of the time, and legend to this day. ;)

SOURCES:
* BODIN (Michel), La France et ses soldats, Indochine 1945-1954 (1996)
* BODIN (Michel), Combattants français face à la Guerre d'Indochine 1945-1954 (1998)
* BODIN (Michel), Les Africains dans la Guerre d'Indochine 1947-1954 (2000)

-------------

Regarding other things I've read above:

* 80% German in the Légion:
As I wrote above, "Germanic" volunteers to the Légion never even reached 50%. And even then, it was regarded as dangerous and the Légion considered applying a ban on more enlistment from this source, something never done before (or since). Yet, I think it was only considered, but never materialized.

* Frenchmen in the Légion:
Frenchmen are forbidden to enlist in the Légion Etrangère. Officialy.
For it has been an open secret since its very beginning than volunteers enlisting under a declared identity, they can declare what they want. Therefore, you'll find that small French-speaking countries such as Belgium or Monaco are providing an incredible number of volunteers to the Légion! It is known to everybody, recruiting officers would even help a volunter file the form appropriately. Actually, it is more like a "tradition" in the Légion.
Since they can't refer to them as "French", the Légion calls the French-speaking volunteers as "Gauls". ;)
But for 1940-1944, when the Légion Etrangère was more French than foreign (recruiting a lot of French escapees from metropolitan France enlisting under a false identity to avoid retribution on their family) and Indochina War (many foreigners, especially Germanic), I think that the accepted average number of Frenchmen in the Légion is around 30%.

* OSS & Ho Chi Min:
Roosevelt & OSS actually actively supported HCM, delivering weapons and instructors to him rather than to the French resistance. Roosevelt was visceraly against French presence in Indochina, and by then the US Foreign Office and OSS regarded HCM as a "nationalist" more than a "communist". In 1944-45, even before the end of the war, OSS would even help HCM capture and eliminate French operatives trying to make contact with Gaulist cells in Indochina and prepare France's return.
It would take quite some time, and the Korean War, for the Americans to change their mind about France's war in Indochina.

* Japanese with the Vietminh:
I had researched that, and can tell you there aren't much sources about it. But they were without a doubt Japanese soldiers fighting with the VM after August 1945.
When Japan capitulated, there were no Allied troops to actually accept the surrender of Japanese troops in Indochina. Therefore, the British, which were meant to occupy the country (Roosevelet having been adamant that France should not return), ordered Japanese troops to keep order in their absence.
Although mostly right-winged, the Japaneses were even more pan-Asianist (does that word exists in English)?
Meaning they wanted European powers to be expelled from Asia. Besides, it is to be remembered that HCM and his followers weren't regarded as "communists" then, but as "nationalists".

And thus, Japanese occupying forces let (even encouraged) Vietnamese nationalists (HCM and others) to take advantage of the power vacuum and declare independance, even delivering weapons to them. They watched while the nationalists attacked European districts, looting or slaughtering the European population. When the British finally arrived (with a few French troops with them), they tried to restore order without placing themselves in the crossfire, but to no avail. Therefore, they gave the French free rein: military prisonners freed from Japanese then nationalists prisons were rearmed and unleashed on the rioters, with a flurry of French savagery this time.
While French & independentists were fighting each others, British officers took the Japaneses in custody. But many individuals, in some case entire battalions, would rather join the VM and keep fighting than surrender.
Numbers are hard to get, but I remember reading once that in the first years of the war (1946-48), an outpost reported an attack by a full company of Japanese volunteers from the VM. Reports of Japanese activity with the VM were mostly during those first years, after which the soldiers either settled in with local women, or managed to return to Japan by their own means. Most of those whom remained were used as instructors or working in workshops to build or repair weapons.
From 1950, they lost any use, since China stepped in to provide massive military assistance. The few remaining Japanese soldiers with the VM returned to Japan.

Very interesting ! Thanks for that intel ! I did learn a few things !

Therefore, we are far from the "entire SS battalion defending Indochina for France" myth … just enough to feed communist propaganda of the time, and legend to this day. ;)

I agree, as you said there may have been some SS in the early days right after the war. And some Nazi German Vets of WWII did serve in the FFL as you posted

Also the Brit invasion of Lebanon/Syria in '41. IIRC Free French FFL fought Vichy FFL [6e REI ?] …

Also the Brit invasion of Lebanon/Syria in '41. IIRC Free French FFL fought Vichy FFL [6e REI ?] …

Only briefly if I recall, for upon realizing what was happening, prince Amilakvari (commanding a 13e DBLE battalion) had a buggler play "Le Boudin", the Légion's anthem.
When the other side replied in the same manner, identifying themselves as légionnaires too, cease-fire was immediatly ordered along the line, on both sides. Then the commanders from both "Free" & "Vichy" Légion agreed not to resume fighting between legionnaires. They held their ground but didn't fire another round.

I had heard similar. IIRC many of Vichy FFL went back to France, while a few joined the Free French FFL.

+1 MadMat20.
Excellent presentation.

B

Thanks MadMat20. Very detailed.

On OSS and HCM in the mid-late 40s I suspect there is a lot of retroactive distortion of the real situation. This comes from both sides.

Here, HCM is held in very high esteem and nobody is allowed to question the official version. Meanwhile supporters of the US narrative tend to view HCM as first and foremost a communist.

The truth lies in between these two poles.

Regarding Japanese deserters with the VM, if one reads French, this article is pretty detailed:
Alliés tardifs : les apports techniques des déserteurs japonais au Viet-Minh durant les premières années de la guerre franco-vietnamienne

The truth lies in between these two poles.

The OSS support HCM in his fight against the Japanese. To primarily set up rat lines as in the ETO to assist downed Allied pilots. And tie up Japanese forces, etc. The OSS Tms on the ground were probably not really too concerned if he was a Communists at that time. As just like with the USSR and Mao's Communist Forces we also supported, assisted, etc.

I have heard the OSS Tms even told HCM that they would help him get Vietnamese independence after the war. That may just have been something they said to get his support, etc. I believe I read some of the OSS on the ground truly believed that. But as we know geopolitics/Realpolitik can have a lot of grey areas, etc. And again the Western leadership was wary about the Communists, i.e. the USSR. As many knew, e.g. Churchill, that the Communists may be the next enemy. HCM did take support from the Communists as well as had some sort of dialogue with them them directly or indirectly …

Good article Mat, my PC converted it to English. Worth reading and contained a lot of good intel.

link

One of HCM's telegrams.

Very interesting … But I think it is clear why Truman gave support to the French. The French were US "allies" since the AWI. The Vietnamese ? Most couldn't find it on a map. The US wanted the UK, etc., to give independence, etc., to some of their colonies. However, again, the US must have seen Communists influence in the Vietnamese leadership, etc.

Vietnam bordered China, which was having it's own conflict between the Communists and the Nationalists. And Communists Russia spreading it's net over many nations in Europe. And some places in Asia, e.g. Korea.

If anything it was in part fear of the Communist threat worldwide. But IMO more importantly France was a long standing US ally, including help to defeat the British during the AWI. The US felt they were much more beholden to them, and not the Vietnamese.

HCM and Vietnam came in second to France in US geopolitics … link

Vietnam's most revered leader lived in Russia twice and spent the greater part of the 1930s in Moscow. He, however, had mixed experiences in the country, and did not always find favor with the Soviet authorities.
Long before Ho Chi Minh became the president of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam in 1945, the Vietnamese revolutionary lived and traveled across Europe. In 1920, when he was 30 Ho became a founding member of the French Communist Party in Paris. He would move to Moscow within three years.

Sounds like why the US saw and may have considered HCM a Communist … Yes ?

More from that link-

nationalist revolutions in colonized nations that inspired Ho Chi Minh," says Nguyen Thanh Khu, a researcher from Hanoi, who studied in the USSR in the 1990s. "Also, his work in Paris in organizing the Vietnamese resistance to French colonization was noticed by the higher powers in Moscow."

In his three years in Paris, Ho published two anti-colonial journals.

In Moscow Ho Chi Minh enrolled at the Communist University of the Toilers of the East, an institution set up by Comintern, an international organization that aimed to spread communism around the world.

After two years in Moscow, Ho moved to Canton (now Guangzhou) in southern China. His was officially employed by the Russian Telegraph Agency (now TASS) as an interpreter.

Even though HCM was not one of Stalin's henchman, it is easy to see why he was considered be a Communist. Or at the very least had strong Communist leanings by the US leadership.

I think that perhaps the fairest retrospective assessment of HCM is that he was a nationalist by nature and a communist by necessity. As a young student living in Paris during the time of the Versailles "treaty" negotiations, he and a small group of other Vietnamese students naively petitioned the Entente representatives requesting that the colonized states making up Indochina be granted their independence. Their petition was (unsurprisingly) ignored.

HCM may well have been a socialist (which was all the rage at that time), but, once the polite approach had been rebuffed, his options in terms of obtaining aid toward his goal were quite limited. The fact that he devoted fifty years of his life toward his goal says something about the depth of his commitment.

People can be very complicated.

B

I'll go with that … good post.

Blutarski,
All Communists are Nationalist. Communism is a Nationalist movement to not just unite their country but to unite the entire world. That's what the Cold War was about.

Using a concept like Communism is a way to unite people and put you in charge. Why hold elections if you don't have to? It has the benefit of using propaganda to turn your followers into Useful Idiots to do your bidding with false promises and equality by targeting the "rich" and the "establishment" while promosing liberation and revolution.

Many Communist Dictators take over on the pretense of equality and liberation. I mean you're not going to rally people to your side if you tell them what you really have in mnid is seizing their private property, deportations (if you are lucky), gulags, firing squads, education replaced with brain washing and elimination of free speech and the right to bear arms.

Castro pulled the same scam in Cuba telling people he was a liberator and not a Socialist or Commie until he got solid agreements with the USSR for support. He got a lot of support in the US before he declared himself a Commie.

During the Cold War, dictators in central and south America played the same game having the US and USSR bid for their support with many going with the USSR because they'll support the policy of suspension of civil and human rights and private property. The US compromised and supported some of these regimes even as they did the same as the Communists would have.

Ho may have been playing nice with the West to leverage what he could get from the USSR. That would have been the smart thing to do and he was a pretty crafty guy.

The US State Department is quoted, "Somoza may be a bastard but he's our bastard". The Cold War was pretty dirty on both sides.

Whether it's called Communism, Socialism, Progressive (it's actually regressive because it calls for more government control and fewer personal freedoms), Marxist, Maoist, Fascist, etc. it's all different terms for Tyranny. It doesn't matter if a country calls themselves "Democratic" or "Republic". There are different degrees of personal freedom and all the above are in the tyranny spectrum.

A real Nationalist is greeted warmly as a liberator when countries are united and under the new regime (like East & West Germany) they are not persecuted or re-educated. That's what a conqueror does.

Ho Chi Minh's dream is still alive: link

You can see why Skarper has said that Ho Chi Minh is still revered and no one can criticize him.

I doubt if the US would have supported this in 1946 and evidently some people in the intel agencies and State Department saw through his benign "Nationalist" disguise for what he really was.

The people of Vietnam deserve better.

Wolfhag

Hi Wolfhag,
Don't mistake my commentary; I am in no way a devotee of Communism in any of its devious guises. Communism has an impeccable track record of dangling promises of a utopian social paradise of "fairness and equality" to lure oppressed and unsophisticated peoples into what, in reality, always emerges as a oligarchical police state kleptocracy.

What I was intending to point out was that HCM appears (to me at any rate) to have cast his lot with the USSR in order to obtain support for his campaign to achieve Vietnamese independence from colonial rule after being ignored by the Entente powers.

B

Blutarski,
No, I know you and where you stand and you're understanding of it. Sorry if it came off that way.

If any group of people know how to survive it's the Vietnamese, they been doing it for quite a while. There are any number of reasons he went with the Soviet Union and maybe the chief on being the VN has been surrounded by enemies for 1000+ years, China being one of their biggest enemies and the USSR having more assets to help. Ho was a smart guy and most likely would have played powers against each other to get what he could. Remember, before Dec 7, 1941 the Communists and Russia, not Germany, were the threats to the US and still were after WWII ended.

Personally, I doubt very much if Ho really considered siding with the US and adopting a Western style Democracy. What if he loses the election? Any die-hard Communist knows how messy and inefficient Western Democracy is. You can get much more accomplished as the "Benevolent Dictator for Life" by inflating your currency, stealing from your enemies and rewarding your friends. If forced to have "free" elections, sure, no problem. Like Lenin said, "It's not who votes but who counts the votes". Stalin let people vote, however, there was only one party candidate to vote for.

In 1947 if the US had offered to unite the country with him in charge he may have taken them up on the offer. But I'm sure after he was what happened to Diem he's glad he never took up the US on any offer.

I think Ho was Nationalist from the viewpoint he wanted what's best for his country and to unite everyone and did what he thought best – the ends justifies the means. Hitler is accused of being a Nationalist too. He wanted what's best for Germany and that was to unite Germany with Czechoslovakia, Austria, France, Norway, Russia, etc.

Wolfhag

I doubt if the US would have supported this in 1946 and evidently some people in the intel agencies and State Department saw through his benign "Nationalist" disguise for what he really was.

Bingo !

It's very difficult, perhaps impossible, to transition smoothly from colonial rule to independent democracy. The people with the talent, skills and integrity to make it happen have been persecuted, murdered, or tainted by collaboration. It takes generations to recover as can been seen in South Korea. They are making progress but it's painfully slow and there are frequent setbacks.

Key planks in the system needed are missing. A free press, an independent judiciary, and free multi-party elections do not just spring up overnight.

The US misadventure in South East Asia [and elsewhere for that matter] placed democracy very low on the list of priorities. The US openly supported brutal dictatorships against popular movements in their quest for 'stability'.

I don't really object to that – maybe it was necessary to avoid chaotic civil wars. What I do object to is the hypocrisy.

HCM's appeal for US help seems to have been about keeping the French out. Not about letting the US in.

I think the French war could have been prevented or at least shortened if FDR's anti-colonial doctrine had continued post 1945. But it's still very likely the American war would have happened. It may not have happened on the South East Asian mainland. Without the foothold of the puppet GVN it's hard to see how it could happen. Perhaps Indonesia? The US was going to fight a proxy war against communism sooner or later.

Socialism/Communism is hard to oppose ideologically. Even now it is hard to find cogent arguments against it in principle. Even more so in the 1920s-30s when it was lifting millions out of abject poverty in the Soviet Union. The problems came later and were largely hidden. Post WW2 the Soviet contribution to defeating Nazi Germany could not be denied with any intellectual honesty. [That didn't stop some from trying just that of course].

Of course, there is no perfect system. Capitalism has killed millions and may end up killing the entire planet if left unchecked. Communism seems the fairest and most efficient system imaginable, but I don't consider it to be the answer either. Vietnam is only Socialist in theory. There are a lot of things I'd like to see improve in many areas and progress is painfully slow. That said, the US and UK both seem to be going backwards – and extreme right wing parties are gaining ground all across Europe.

We have to stand back and look at every 'ism' as temporary and imperfect. Capitalism will go the way of Feudalism, Colonialism and indeed Communism in due course.

What should replace it? The best results seem to come from mixed systems. Some things should certainly be owned and run by the state as natural monopolies. Meanwhile individuals should be free to innovate and improve their own situation. Scandinavian countries can make this work on a small scale and China, for all its ills, has achieved a lot in the past 30 years on a grand scale.

Sorry. I'm not taking the bait.

B

Agree B !

Skarper certainly has a valid point about the UK going backwards, however whether the UK survives as a unitary state beyond the next couple of years is very questionable…interesting times and all that.

….. a bit TOO interesting for my taste.

B

I largely agree; staying in the UK and out of the EU is way too interesting for me.

I'm pretty sure as before the USA survived and will continue to weather any storms now and in the future. The USA is not on it's way down.

Of course this has nothing to do with the original question. But some can't resist going OT, etc. I'll admit I am guilty of this as well on occasion.

But once the discussion became about Capitalism vs. Communism, and HCM being Communist of not … it jumped the shark …
🦈 Those had nothing to do with Germans in the FFL or Japanese in the Viet Minh …

x 2 for Legion 4.