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"[Russia 1805] Cavalry" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2020 1:53 a.m. PST

Ok, quick and dirty- specifically Dragoons for now- I'm retrofitting some command figures (Hinchliffe 28mm) into a retro-70's painted unit.

Nothing, nowhere, even here, can i find out what colours and decoration (or if they even existed)- the bandolier of a standard bearer (sub officer) would be.

On the models, its' big and chunky (bigger than a cartouche belt) and stands out significantly. So is quite prominent and obviously, I'd like to get 'close' to what it should be. For now I've given it a plain white flavour.

My own alternative is that it could possibly be of the facing colour- for Kharkov Regiment-orange.

What do the experts say?

[OTOH/ FWIW]
On the stranger than fiction front- isn't it about time we had a 'Best of' or 'Catalogue' of articles (topics) maintained on the latest (front page) of the 'Napoleonic Painting Guides board' since there's no other way to track good value, old material.

Like the "Useful Stuff" of Nap. Media forum. I've hooked a few in following major searches etc. but I'm sure topics crop up all the time that are more easily referenced with data already there/ here.

cheers ignobly yours,
≠≠davew≠≠ wine

BillyNM27 Sep 2020 5:39 a.m. PST

I can't find anything but as it's much wider than a carbine belts (as you describe) I'd expect it would be decorated if only with trim in the unit's button colour like this cuirassier.

picture

Prince of Essling27 Sep 2020 11:53 a.m. PST

From Viskovatov Mark Conrad's translation for 30 April 1802: link

Non-commissioned officers and first sergeants [vakhmistry] of Dragoon regiments have the same uniform as dragoon privates, but with gold and silver galloon (according to the colour of the buttons) along the bottom and side edges of the coat collar, tassels on the hat that are white worsted with centres of orange and black, and the additional distinction of the top of the plume being of mixed orange and black feathers (Illus. 1432). Like infantry and cuirassier non-commissioned officers, they are authorized stick canes which in mounted order are fastened, as before, to the butt of the right-hand pistol, putting the lower end through the horse's chest band. Of the arms and accoutrements of dragoon privates, they are not authorized the musketoon, and their cross belt for the cartridge pouch is only 2 5/8 inches wide, without a buckle, cross piece, end piece, or hook. The tassels of their sword knots are white with a mix of black and orange; sword belts do not have bayonet frogs, and their saddles do not have saddle buckets.

Distinguished officer candidates [fanen-yunkera, from the German "Fahnen-Junker"]are uniformed and armed as non-commissioned officers and have all the same horse furniture, except that the coat's shoulder strap has gold or silver galloon (according to the colour of the buttons) sewn down the whole length of its middle; their sword knots are of officer pattern (Illus. 1433), and the saddle has a bucket for the standard.

Note: Distinguished officer candidates [fanen-yunkera], as other non-commissioned officers, have cartridge pouches, but when they are in formation with a standard, these are not worn.

Volume 11 in colour illustrations are towards the rear of the Volume PDF link
Illustrations No:
1432. Noncommissioned Officer. Tver Dragoon Regiment. 1802-1803.
1433. Fahnen -Junker. St.-Petersburg Dragoon Regiment. 1802-1803.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2020 3:18 p.m. PST

Thanks. I'd already checked and no references to the actual standard-bearer or bandolier belt.

gold starI saw a low res copy- couldn't tell from that illustration the ornamentation was there, but yours is much clearer. Is the source diagram reliable (not the site)?

Again military redundancy? Wearing a belt and cartridge pouch but not actually issued muskets/ carbines? Dragoons WTH? And we do not see them depicted with pistols either, though some logic if they are 'packed' on the horse I suppose.

Well I've already painted the figure to a degree of completion, so I'd rather not deface it by removing his pouch now. I will try to add the unique galonage detail however, as I add NCOs attributes to my French.

gold stargold star Cheers for the links and volume ! And now I can paint much nicer Russian plumes!
gold star d~cup

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2020 11:15 p.m. PST

It occurs to me a day later, I have erred.

While my brain says I am making a unit for 1805, the models are of course, post 1811. So really it suits

Nevertheless, I will paint the extra command figures up as required.

There's about a regiments worth of others left, so I may putty-up the comb into an 1805 chenille and do a real 1805 paint job, this time using facing colours (like above) for the schabraque that will really make the unit stand out.
Cheers d

Stoppage28 Sep 2020 4:52 a.m. PST

Doll-up all the officers and ncos with the caterpillar/raupe/chenille crest.

Prince of Essling28 Sep 2020 12:16 p.m. PST

Fahnen-Junker is the equivalent of ensign, porte epee i.e. the flag carrier.

Viskovatov in general is pretty good though not always 100 per cent. For the Dragoons I would go with the translation as the foot note says:
(71) Everything stated here about clothing, weapons, and horse furniture for combatant and non-combatant ranks in Dragoon regiments is based on: HIGHEST confirmed table of 30 April, 1802; rules located cited in the foregoing Notes; drawings preserved in the SOVEREIGN EMPEROR'S Own Library in the Winter Palace, No 246 in the catalogue; original articles preserved in various Arsenals, and the evidence of contemporaries. In regard to the sabres mentioned as part of the uniforms and weaponry of Dragoon regiments, information was received from the Artillery Department, and in addition based on the proposals of the Intendant-General of the Army to the Commissariat Commission, from 16 June and 4 July, 1802.

Will also have a look at "Zeughaus" magazine.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2020 2:32 a.m. PST

Thanks guys, gradually making progress but will be another couple of weeks with other projects running side by side.

Prince of Essling29 Sep 2020 9:47 a.m. PST

From Parkhaev 1812 series

picture

Translation from google translate so a bit rubbish:
12. FANEN-JUNKER OF THE KARGOPOLSKY DRAGOON REGIMENT
The Kargopol Dragoon Regiment was formed in 1707. In the Patriotic War, the active squadrons of the regiment were in the 1st Western Army in the 2nd Cavalry Corps of Major General F. K. Korf, the reserve squadron was part of the consolidated-dragoon regiment of the reserve corps, Lieutenant General P. Meller-Sakomelsky. Colonel I. L. Paul commanded the Kargopol regiment.
At the retreat of the 1st Western Army to Smolensk, the Kargopol dragoons fought in rear guard battles. Then the regiment served in the convoy of the Main Apartment. During the foreign campaigns of 1813-1814 he was a member of the Silesian army, fought at Katzbach, at Leipzig, near Brienne.
In the general Dragoon form, the Kargopol regiment had a "fire" (pink-orange) instrument colour, a white instrument metal. Fanen-Junker – standard-bearers (German "Rae" – banner) – in addition to non-commissioned officer differences, taken in dragoon regiments (galun lining on the collar and cladding), had on the uniforms a long-duty layout of a gallon of instrument metal, and on the executioners – officer's timkas. Over the left shoulder wore a white moose bandage (panthaler) with a metal hook to fix the shaft of the standard. On the right stirrup was a leather nest – bushmat, where the "heel" of the standard shaft was inserted.
Dragoons of army regiments wore the same helmets and slags as army kirasirs. Mundir was dark green, double-breasted, with red fhalluses of fhallus. The parade was worn by white pantaloons and black boots, in the campaign – general army gray overalls with tight buttons (the officers have metal buttons). The uniforms, the collar, the lining, the lining on the caps and the royal venzel of the instrument colour.

Compare with Cuirassier standard bearer:

picture

3. HIS MAJESTY'S ST. JUNKER OF THE KIRASIR REGIMENT
The regiment received its name in 1796. In the Patriotic War of 1812, four active squadrons of the regiment were in the 1st Western Army in the 1st Kirasir Division major-general N. I. Depreradovich, the reserve squadron – in the corps of Lieutenant General P. X. Wittgenstein in the vaulted Kirasir regiment. Colonel K. V. Budberg commanded the regiment.
In the Battle of Borodino, the regiment operated in the area of Semyonovsky ravine. The Kirasir Brigades of Major General N. M. Borozdin "went on a number of occasions, entered the infantry, and His Majesty's regiment repelled two guns."
In early 1813, the regiment was awarded the Guard for its distinction in the Patriotic War, and on April 13, 1813, he was awarded the St. George's Standard with the inscription "For distinction in defeating and expelling the enemy from the limits of Russia in 1812."
On the second day of the Battle of Kulm, on August 18, 1813, Major General K. B. Knorring "with the regiments of His Majesty's Leib-Kirasir and the Tatar Ulan… quickly came out to the height through a hail of bullets and a cart, fought off three cannons on it and dispersed the French infantry." On August 30, 1814, the regiment was awarded the St. George's Pipes with the inscription "For the excellent feats rendered in the worthy campaign, safely completed in 1814."
With the general Kirasir form, the regiment had a blue instrument color and white instrument metal. Eight-pointed stars with the image of a two-headed eagle were placed on helmets, slags, caps and bumps. Standard Junker (ecstandard-junker) – standard-bearers – in addition to the general army non-commissioned officers' differences wore on the uniforms of the longitudinal halo of the color of instrument metal and officer's timka on the executioner.

Widowson01 Oct 2020 7:21 p.m. PST

I don't think they wore bandoliers for the flag staff. It was secured in a cup soldered to the right hand stirrup. The bandoliers shown above appear to be for suspending the carbine or cartridge pouch.

At least two of the images above clearly show the carbine clip attached to the bandolier. On the third, it's hidden. Why those bandoliers look decorated with button colored lace is beyond me. Very un-Russian.

von Winterfeldt03 Oct 2020 3:31 a.m. PST

It is pretty evident that a carbine is attached to it so it can be hooked into the bar of the standard pole, usually about hand height, you can see this on the cuirassier plate well, he just did not hook it into the bar.
Also most likely there could be a difference between 1805 and 1812 in design of the belt for standard bearers.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2020 3:33 a.m. PST

Yes thanks for further observations.

I've no doubt the unit is incorrectly uniformed, given it was to information dating from the before the '60-'70's but I'm happy to conform with and apply such niceities as I can to complete it. On these I am looking for compliance and utility, not excellence.
cheers again, d

Widowson05 Oct 2020 8:41 p.m. PST

What's odd is that Russian standard bearers were all NCOs, and NCOs never carried carbines, even when the troop did. Those figures SHOULD all have belts over their left shoulders, but it should be the cartridge pouch attached to it, not a clip for a carbine.

von Winterfeldt10 Oct 2020 2:27 a.m. PST

it is a pretty straightforward method.

NCOs in cavalry did not carry a firearm carbine – therefore no carbine belt.

NCOs carrying a standard did wear a standard belt, this had attached to it the "carbine" (not the fire arm, but a sort of carbine as in mountain climbing) to which the standard could be hooked in case of need, see construction of standard belt.

For troopers carrying a firearm carbine, they did wear the carbine belt and the firearm carbine could be attached to the attachment carbine.

ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore22 Oct 2020 11:10 a.m. PST

VW- Yes I think that is the correct explanation.

Russian standard carrying NCOs did wear a belt over the left shoulder to secure the standard- c18th style.
All of the illustrations I have ever seen are like those above. The Cuirassiers have a decorated belt with a carabiner clip, and an old fashioned standard pole shaped like a medieval lance. The Dragoons have a plain white belt also with clip and a plan standard pole. Both poles have a metal bar fitted into them onto which the carabiner clip can be fitted- to stop the standard from falling to the ground if the man loses his grip on it. There was also a cup fitted to right stirrup to hold the base of the pole- giving further security.

In English the spring clip used in mountaineering is always called the carabiner (or sometimes karabiner) clip- clearly revealing its origins as Germanic cavalry equipment. I think these clips were invented in Germany around the 30 Years War.

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