"The fires of conflict are being doused" Topic

x2 Jack …

You're two state solution, for example, might appear to be just to you, but from my standpoint the Israelis would be fools to agree to it as the 'bad' Palestinians would continue to use their land as base for attacks into Israel,

Those ‘bad Palestinians' you are talking about are a minority. Most Palestinians, including most exiled Palestinians (millions), want a solution based on Oslo Peace Accords, that is, two states.

The creation of a Palestinian state would improve security and protection. This creation would be a process controlled by the United Nations and neutral countries, based on International Laws and Human Rights. It would be the best solution even for Israel, because the new Palestinian State could limit and minimize any radical attack. The radicals would be neutralized by the new Palestinian laws and institutions. Because of this reason, the radical Palestinians do not want a Palestinian state based on Oslo Peace Accords. With a new Palestinian state those violent Palestinians would lose their freedom to operate and their own justification (their raison d'ętre).

So two states is the best solution, and both Israel and Palestine would benefit mutually.

I'm having a very difficult time reconciling your two-state solution idea with your statement "Yes, the creation of the State of Israel was a disaster, a mess, a botch.

There is no contradiction in my words. An historical fact may be analysed and judged by its own characteristics and by its consequences. The creation of the State of Israel was a disaster, a mess, a botch. In is an undeniable fact. Why? Firstly because it was a foreign invasion which caused the forced deportation of millions of Palestinian people who lost their homes and lands. Secondly because that forced deportation caused wars, violence and suffering for decades until now.

But nowadays the State of Israel exists, it is a fait accompli, and many Israeli families live in it. Nowadays war and destruction is not a solution because YOU CANNOT REMEDY ONE INJUSTICE BY COMMITTING ANOTHER INJUSTICE. The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 caused a tremendous injustice. The destruction of the State of Israel now would cause another tremendous injustice.

Your 90% numbers are nonsense, but that's really irrelevant, isn't it?

It is necessary to know that 90% of population in Palestine were Palestinians, not Jews. It is necessary because those foreign Jews invaded a land which was populated by people who lived in it for hundreds of years. Palestine was not an empty land.

Surely you see the parallel here.

Following your reasoning, the parallel here is that any people have the right to claim lands which were inhabited by their ancestors thousands of years ago, despite the fact that those lands have changed deeply and have been inhabited by other people for centuries. This is the real nonsense.

Zionism, like any other European nineteenth-century nationalist ideology, was based on two main ideas:

First, the creation of a nation state. It is the typical declaration of intent with the typical justifications.

Second, the answer to the question: Where are we going to create a new nation state? And the typical answer given by nineteenth-century nationalists consists on looking for their ancestors' lands, thousands of years ago, as if those lands had been frozen in time and they had remained uninhabited, waiting for their return. It is an absurdity. It is acute schizophrenia.

If every people around the world claimed their ancestors' lands, from thousands of years ago, the entire world would be a disaster.

You can keep trying to obfuscate the matter, but here are the facts: Jews AND Palestinians were located on the land in 1948

‘Palestinians were located on the land in 1948'. It is a joke, isn´t it?

So Palestinians were located on their own land. Are you aware of this absurdity?

A brief summary: foreign Jews (from other countries) invaded Palestine and the Palestinians were forced to accept an imposed partition. Also, following your reasoning, they had to accept to be located on some portions of their own lands!!

I am sure that American people would accept to be located on some portions of their lands if their country were invaded by foreign people…

You keep saying it but Palestine WAS NOT a country, it was a British governed territory

Palestine was a nation. It was considered a country, geographically and culturally speaking, and it was a land inhabited by the Palestinians. It was their land, for centuries. But it was not a state. The despicable British colonialism was responsible for the coming disaster.

That's some interesting sleight of hand. Your assertion is (or seems to be) that the Jews drove the conflict in 1948,

Yes, the Jewish invaders caused that conflict. They did not live there. They came from other countries. If you invade a territory with the intention of creating your own state, the people who live in that territory will fight for their homes and lands, using any strategy and any support at their disposal. It is evident. Even a schoolboy can understand it.

And I think this may actually have the effect of helping the two-state solution.

I would like to share your hope. It is a possibility. But I think those Arab dictators are not trustworthy.

You speak of 'Lebensraum' policies but you lack context, and possibly, compassion and empathy

It has nothing to do with compassion or empathy. The State of Israel has been occupying illegally other Palestinian lands, against International Law principles, and evicting Palestinian inhabitants. The State of Israel has been establishing new settlements and colonies on those illegally occupied lands. It is a typical example of Lebensraum policies.

Justice is justice no matter how it comes, and though it may be late

I could not agree more. But I repeat: We cannot remedy an injustice by committing another injustice.

According to the editor's response, my disappeared post (yesterday) cannot be recovered. It is definitively 'lost'.

The reason given is not very explanatory, and, in my opinion, it is insufficient.

It was a lengthy post. Now I know It was a waste of time.
I am very disappointed. I would not like to think about any kind of censorship here, but this really does not look good.

So I do not want to continue writting on this board.

Good luck and stay safe.

"The real fact is that millions of Palestinians were expelled from their homes and lands, from 1948 until now. This is an undeniable and unquestionable fact. Right?"

No, not right. They left their homes in 1948 because they were told to get out of the way of the approaching Arab armies. They were told they they could return when Israel was gone.

As for Israel being an artificial country, that argument can be made. However, can you show me a time when a country called Palestine existed? It was part of Syria during the Ottoman empire.

"Well, this is not a forum devoted to religious matters, so I should not explain deeply the Doctrine of Imam (12th or 7th) here because it is very complex and it requires religious and philosophical knowledge. It is not suitable for common people who lack this kind of knowledge."

So you can't explain it, but you can belittle other people who don't agree with you.

"Their country is not Jordan, their country is Palestine. So the only possible agreement is based on Oslo Peace Accords: two states."

You're dodging the question. They didn't want a two state solution until they lost yet another war with the Israelies. And, even when they got the two state solution, they rejected it thinking they could still destroy Israel. Not to mention the fact the leadership of the Palestinians are still calling for the destruction of Israel and Hamas has that destruction in their charter.

"Anti-Semitism is a concept commonly used, but its use is incorrect and inaccurate. In fact, it is a consequence of ignorant ethnocentrism. There are many other Semitic people."

Nice dodge. No one has ever used the term anti-Semitism to mean someone dislikes Arabs, Sunnis, Shia, or anyone else. It means anti-Jewish. Nothing else.

"t would be the best solution even for Israel, because the new Palestinian State could limit and minimize any radical attack. "

I'm sorry, but that statement is laughable. The Palestinian Authority has had control of the west bank and Gaza since 1994 and the rockets keep flying into Israel. The Palestinians, through those that represent them, have shown no desire for peace or a two-state solution.

"Firstly because it was a foreign invasion which caused the forced deportation of millions of Palestinian people who lost their homes and lands."

You do realize that no matter how many times you say this….it still isn't true.

"It is necessary to know that 90% of population in Palestine were Palestinians, not Jews."

So Jews weren't Palestinians? Sounds like apartheid. In 1931 Jews were about 16% of the population, Christians 5% and Muslims 80%. In 1947 Jews were 32%, Christians 7% and Muslims 59%. So Muslims never made up 90% of the population. And the partition divided the land based on demographics. Had the Palestinians accepted it then, their state would be much larger than what they have now.

"First, the creation of a nation state. It is the typical declaration of intent with the typical justifications."

I think the justification was that six million Jews were killed in an effort to wipe them out based on Darwin's theory of evolution. That and it created the only Jewish state in the entire world. One Jewish country out of 206.

"The despicable British colonialism was responsible for the coming disaster."

Um, no. There was no British colonization. The British took over a region called Palestine. It had been part of Syria in the Ottoman Empire. No British colony was set up there. They got it when the Ottoman Empire was carved up after WWI.

Did not Palestinian Terrorists kill Westerners including Americans ? Wait I looked it up:

List of Americans that have been murdered by Palestinian terrorism

1. Taylor Allen Force, 29 years old, was stabbed to death on March 8th 2016 amid a Palestinian terror rampage. Taylor and his group were walking down the seaside promenade in Jaffa when a terrorist began stabbing anyone within reach. Besides Taylor, the terrorist also stabbed 11 others. The Palestinian terrorist, Bashar Massalha, 22 year-old, was shot dead by police after a chase.

2. Richard Leikin, 76 years old, was shot in the head and stabbed in the chest in the attack in the neighborhood of Armon Hanatziv in Jerusalem on October 13th 2015 and died two weeks later from his severe injuries. One of the terrorists, Baha Alyan was shot dead by police. The other one, Bilal Abu Ghanem, from Jabel Mukaber, (neighborhood in East Jerusalem) was sentenced to three consecutive life sentences and an additional 60 years in prison.

3. Ezra Schwartz, an 18-year-old from Sharon, Massachusetts, was on a gap year in an Israeli yeshiva. He was one of three victims killed in a terrorist attack at the Gush Etzion junction in the West Bank on November 19th 2015. The terrorist, Muhammad Haruv from a village near Hebron was sentenced to four life prison terms.

4. Gilad Shaer, 16 years old, was one of the three teenagers who were kidnapped by Palestinian terrorists from the bus stop near Alon Shvut in Gush Etzion. The kidnappers, Marwan Qawasmeh and Amar Abu Aysha were killed on September 23rd 2014 in a military operation in Hebron.

5. Haya Zissel-Brown, A three-month-old baby, was killed and seven other people were wounded when a Palestinian drove his car into a light rail train station near Ammunition Hill in Jerusalem on October 22nd 2014. The terrorist, Abdel Rahman Al-Shaludi, a Palestinian resident of the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan, was shot by police and died from his wounds at the hospital.

6. Christine Logan, 45 years old, was on a hike in the Beit Shemesh area, southwest of Jerusalem, on December 18th 2010, when two terrorists, Kifah Ghanimat and Ibrahim Ghanimat, residents of the Hebron area, stabbed her and another woman. Kifah Ghanimat, the leader of a Palestinian terror cell of four members, was sentenced to two life sentences and 60 years in prison and Ibrahim Ghanimat received a life sentence and 16 additional years in prison.

7. Daniel Waltz, 16 years old, was severely injured on April 17th 2006 when a Palestinian suicide bomber, Sami Abdel Hafiz Antar from Nablus, approached a crowded restaurant near the old Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv. Daniel, who was visiting Israel with his parents, died at Ichilov hospital in Tel Aviv, almost a month after the attack.

8. Shmuel Taubenfeld, three months, of New Square, New York, and his mother, Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, were two of 23 persons murdered by a suicide bomber, Raad Misk, on a No. 2 Egged bus in the capital's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood on August 19th 2003.

9. Steve Averbach, 44, died on June 3, 2010, succumbing to injuries suffered in the May 18th 2003 suicide bus bombing in Jerusalem.

10. Marla Bennett, 24, of California (USA);
11. Benjamin Blutstein, 25, of Pennsylvania (USA);
12. Janis Ruth Coulter, 36, of New York (USA);
13. Dina Carter, 37, of Jerusalem (USA);
14. David Gritz, 24, of Massachusetts (USA-France);
Were all killed at The Hebrew University Massacre on 31 July 2002 in a cafeteria at the Mount Scopus campus of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. 9 people were killed in the attack, including 5 American students.

The terrorists who carried out the massacre were Wisam Al-Abbasi, sentenced to 26 life sentences and another 40 years, Muhammad Ouda, who laid the bomb and who was sentenced to 9 life sentences and another 40 years and Alaa Al-Din Al-Abbasi, who was sentenced to 60 years in prison.

15. Shoshana Yehudit (Judy) Greenbaum, 31, (5 months pregnant), from New Jersey, was killed at the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing in downtown Jerusalem on August 9th 2001, in which 15 civilians were killed, including 7 children.
Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri carried out the suicide bombing. Abdallah Barghouti, who constructed the explosives and who was involved in a string of other attacks in which 66 civilians were killed, was sentenced to 67 life sentences.

Ahlam Tamimi, who drove the suicide bomber to his target was sentenced to 16 life sentences but was released as part of a prisoner exchange (Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange). Currently she hosts a television show about Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
Mohammad Daghlas was sentenced to 15 life sentences but was released as part of a prisoner exchange (Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange)

The PA pays monthly stipends according to four categories:
1. Prisoners while in prison;
2. Released prisoners;
3. Prisoners' families;
4. Prisoners' legal needs.

All prisoners, irrespective of their crime or their political/terror group affiliation, receive the same monthly base salaries from the PA. The salary goes directly to the terrorist or the terrorist's family. Married prisoners receive additional pay, as well as those with children. Arabs from Jerusalem and Israeli Arabs who are imprisoned for terror offenses, get an additional supplement of 300 New Israeli Shekels (NIS) and 500 NIS respectively.

Let's not forget Sirhan Sirhan a Palestinian Christian who assassinated a very prominent US politician, Robert F. Kennedy, in 1968. link

All that is good enough for me to label at least some Palestinians as terrorists plus many support those acts. I remember seeing many singing and dancing in the streets of Gaza, etc., after 9/11 … and yet, I forget how many millions of US $ go to the PA yearly. Which IMO is to try to keep the peace. I think the POTUS was recently talking about stopping that $ as it doesn't seem to have any real effect. I tend to support that idea …

Legion, I can never pity stupid westerners who go to war zones and get killed.

It is like the 1990s sob stories of Australian backpackers killed in Cambodia by Khmer guerillas.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Palestine was 94% Arab Muslim in 1900.

Jewish resettlement in first half of 1900s was a deliberate action by the Jewish nationalist movement. The Zionists had actually considered other parts of the world but settles for Israel.

The US and Americans are biased towards Israel and turn a blind eye to Israeli war crimes. Israel could massacre all the Palestinians and the US would merely sell them the bullets (much like the US sells weapons to Saudi Arabia to use on civil populations in Yemen).

Current US solution condones illegal Israeli expansion and condemns Palestinians to poverty whilst giving all the good bits of the West Bank.

I can never pity stupid westerners who go to war zones and get killed.

It is like the 1990s sob stories of Australian backpackers killed in Cambodia by Khmer guerillas.

Well yes but they should have the expectation to not be targeted. And if they are killed those that do the killings should be brought to justice, e.g. drone strikes, etc., IMO.

And yes I agree to a point e.g. a US and Canadian hiker were captured by one of the Taliban groups in A'stan about 10-15 years ago. They were released after being in the terrorists about 8-10 year after their capture. The woman was raped, one of their children killed. And the couple still managed to have a baby while in captivity(!). They though they were safe as they were not in the military and had no problem with the Taliban et al, etc.,.

Yes, Stupid is as stupid does. …

The US and Americans are biased towards Israel

Yes I've admitted before. And based on how things are my mind I won't change. We grew up seeing Arab terrorist kill US, UK, etc. civilian. And it continued on for decades, even recently, i.e. ISIS.

Well yes but they should have the expectation to not be targeted. And if they are killed those that do the killings should be brought to justice, e.g. drone strikes, etc., IMO.

Drone strikes are certainly not justice…well not in the legal sense of the word. And when your Predator drone is raining hell on wedding parties then it's mere tit-for-tat revenge killing not that far removed from the Hatfields and McCoys.

I am not averse to wiping out terrorists (or first striking China before they get too powerful or totally undermining Russia to the point it collapses and becomes a failed state or the dismantling of the technocratic undemocratic EU or the destruction of global neo-liberal capitalism).

But the facts stand as they are.

And I always find the war on terrorism hypocritical given that Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or any of the other terrorist supporting Arab states ever paid for decades of supporting Islamist extremism (which they all do to this day). 9-11 terrorists were mainly Saudi, the attack was organised by a member of the Saudi elite (Osama Bin Ladin) and much has been done to interfere with any potential Saudi links to it.

Instead the US helps Saudi Arabia murder civilians in Yemen and allowed the Arabs to create ISIS. ISIS' biggest backers were Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UAE, Qatar and the CIA facilitated by helping Saudis buy Eastern European Soviet style weapons to arm the various Islamist militias in Syria.

As for Israel-Palestine, that is definitely Hatfield-McCoy territory.

It will only resolve itself at whatever point the middle east completely explodes and wipes itself out leaving only sad scavengers to pick from the bones.

Israel itself seems to be steering itself away from at least a nominally liberal progressive European style country to something more darker and oppressive. The increasing religious fundamentalist nature of the country (ie growth of Haredis) will cast a dark shadow for decades to come.

Drone strikes are certainly not justice…well not in the legal sense of the word.

Well when dealing with terrorists you sometimes have to "play a little out of the box". As they do … but again I think like a soldier not a politician, liberal academic intellectual, etc.(I'm not saying you are, just making a point). As generally they or their children won't have to go in harm's way.

And when your Predator drone is raining hell on wedding parties then it's mere tit-for-tat revenge killing not that far removed from the Hatfields and McCoys.

Well especially when it comes to terrorists, there may be some collateral damage. For better or worse. As we know classic insurgent dogma calls for moving among the civilian population is one way they can "take cover", blend in, etc.

I am not averse to wiping out terrorists

But as we also know in these type of operations non-combatant losses will and did occur. They use their civilians as human shields, so to speak. It is the nature of the beast. And mistakes will be made, as in all types of war. I see a selective, surgical use of firepower saves "our" lives and takes "theirs'".

Plus I firmly believe the drone strike taking out Suleimani and an Iraqi Shite leader was a good "hit". He/they clearly were our enemies …

As well in an insurgency, the guerilla gets support from some members of the local population. That makes them de facto targets, yes ? And as always we have to be aware of collateral damage. But with this type if insurgency, it is not too much like the "hearts & minds" concept we saw in the war in South East Asia.

As you said on another thread here, we are currently dealing with –

"Fascist fundamentalist Islamism"

… Where the VC/NVA were Communist Nationalists. Two different dogmas, etc.

But I will say even though you and I have very different POVs and are very polarized on this and other topics. We can discuss without being vitriolic, divisive, insulting, etc. If we can't listen to other POVs we may never learn/see where they are coming from. Even if in the end we still may/will disagree …