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"Only Two CSA Statues in Richmond?" Topic


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Quaama13 Sep 2020 7:05 p.m. PST

I understand that there are only two CSA statues remaining in Richmond (those of General R E Lee and General A P Hill) although both have been vandalised with graffiti. Is that correct?

The A P Hill Monument seems a curious case as it is also a gravesite as that is where General Hill is buried. Does special permission need to be given (e.g by descendants if there are any) to disturb a gravesite?

While looking into this matter I came across something else that is curious. The rear of the monument has an inscription that says "His remains were interred here June 24, 1891" see https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=19813 yet it appears that was not the case. Due to a legal issue link (see column six of that newspaper front-page) Generall Hill's remains could not be moved on that day. I remain unsure of when his remains were actually interred within the monument.

Quaama13 Sep 2020 8:16 p.m. PST

Deleted by Moderator

I am saying it appears that all of them (except the two mentioned above) have now been removed: here is the Wikipedia list link although it doesn't even mention the A P Hill Monument. A quick internet search also revealed this lengthy (but out-of-date) list link

Quaama13 Sep 2020 8:37 p.m. PST

Dang, those urls are messing up the page!

Agreed. A useful feature that could be added to TMP would be to allow you to display a word or two to describe the link rather than have the entire link be displayed. [For example, in my opening post the lengthy second link could have been replaced with 'Richmond Dispatch June 25, 1891'.]

Personal logo Grelber Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2020 9:44 p.m. PST

Hill was killed in battle on April 2, 1865, just before the Confederates evacuated Petersburg. In the chaos of the next few days, he couldn't be transported to Richmond for burial, so he was temporarily buried in Chesterfield County for two years, then his body was moved to a cemetery in Richmond in 1867. His body was moved again to the monument with his statue in 1891. He was buried standing up at his own request.
I'd think this means that this isn't merely a statue, but is a grave, as well, and protected by a variety of other laws prohibiting desecration of graves.

Grelber

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2020 10:07 p.m. PST

What laws do you think protect anything from cultural anarchists? I suspect if you were to try to prevent them from desecrating the grave, you would be arrested for some cultural diversity crime.

Wackmole914 Sep 2020 7:24 a.m. PST

Well at least your not having your ACW monument replaced with this

Toppling of Union soldier statue provides opportunity for Sand Creek monument at CO state Capitol

link

Pan Marek14 Sep 2020 8:11 a.m. PST

Wack-
The horror! A monument to Native Americans massacred
needlessly by American troops.

Wackmole914 Sep 2020 9:14 a.m. PST

Yes and We have a wonderful Monument at the site, but we need another right where the Monument to all Union Veterans of the Civil uses to sit.

How About a monument to the Hungates

The Hungate massacre involved the murder of the family of Nathan Hungate along Running Creek (Box Elder Creek near present-day Elizabeth, Colorado) on June 11, 1864.[1][2] It was a precipitating factor leading to the Sand Creek massacre of November 29, 1864.

Personal logo Grelber Supporting Member of TMP14 Sep 2020 10:49 a.m. PST

Quaama's link showed 25 statues going away in Virginia. Of these, 20 are being removed by owners, municipalities, land owners, or some other responsible group. Five were toppled by protesters. So, that looks like an 80% chance that anything that is to be done with the A. P. Hill statue will be done by responsible authorities, who have to act in accordance with applicable laws.

Grelber

Quaama14 Sep 2020 1:41 p.m. PST

Although many statues are being removed by owners or some authority they have usually been subject to vandalism prior to the removal. There are plenty of images (and videos) to show the vandalism of the Lee statue in Richmond which I think is still there only because of a pending court case. Many in Richmond were removed prior to July 1 (by authorities) when a law existed to prevent their removal. One report I saw said:

"[Richmond Mayor] Stoney said that he decided to remove the statues immediately because people could be hurt trying to topple them, and "we have an urgent need to protect the public." [1] One person has been seriously injured trying to pull down a statue in Portsmouth, Virginia, and Stoney along with several city council members expressed concern that the statues had become a public safety hazard."
[1] This seems to me that some people have to be protected from their own unlawfulness and dangerous acts in carrying them out.

Deleted by Moderator

Well, I'm not going to bore people with an essay but I understand that the removal of Richmond statues/monuments prior to July 1 is subject of at least one court case. How the law (and the relevant authority) treats a matter such as the A P Hill Monument which is also a gravesite (and I believe there are no surviving decendants) will be seen soon. When that monument was unveiled there was quite a hoopla and it was a grand event for the city of Richmond with the report going for over one and a half pages in what was normally a 4-6 page newspaper
see Richmond Dispatch May 31, 1892.

I do not know if these items are being erected anywhere else, they are simply gone (in storage, damaged, destroyed). As discussed in ACW Battlefields: Next Target In The War On History it is useful to quote:
Orwell from 1984
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped."; and
the words of a Union veteran in relation to Gettysburg
"There is not a monument or inscription to show that an army of equal in numbers and valor to our own struggled fiercely for three days to destroy it."

@Mister Tibbles: You'll be pleased to see from the above that I found the way to fix the lengthy url problem I had earlier.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian14 Sep 2020 2:14 p.m. PST

A useful feature that could be added to TMP would be to allow you to display a word or two to describe the link…

Read the FAQ grin

Quaama14 Sep 2020 3:07 p.m. PST

Read the FAQ grin

Ha, I did – it just took me several years! [I'm a bit slow on some technological matters.]

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP14 Sep 2020 6:29 p.m. PST

"Read the FAQ?"
What madness is this? That's just crazy talk.

USAFpilot15 Sep 2020 3:35 a.m. PST

The horror! A monument to Native Americans massacred
needlessly by American troops.

And before Europeans settled here the Native Americans were busy massacring each other. It was no happy hunting grounds utopia.

Quaama15 Sep 2020 5:31 a.m. PST

"Read the FAQ?"
What madness is this? That's just crazy talk.

C'est la vie. [Rough Translation = 'Such is Life' (so I do not get into trouble for using a foreign language).]

Bill N15 Sep 2020 7:50 a.m. PST

And before Europeans settled here the Native Americans were busy massacring each other.

Modern archaeology/anthropology also suggests they had their share of ecological disasters as well.

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