"Size of Napoleonic artillery carriages" Topic

I posed this question on another forum as well, but thought I might consult those experts here: In trying to get a reasonable match for my 20mm Hinchliffe napoleonic artillery models (which I believe were well known at the time for accuracy), I have come across an interesting conundrum – appropriate carriage sizes.

For the British single trail carriage I believe both the 6 and 9 pounders used the same size carriage. Can any grognards out there confirm that? I do not believe the British used 12 pounders during the Peninsular campaign, but if I am wrong please let me know.

I am less clear on the French guns. Do the 6 and 8 pounders of the Gribeauval system use the same size carriage? I think so but have not been able to confirm. Are 12 pounder carriages larger than their lighter cousins? I would expect so but once again don't really know.

The Russian guns may be easier as I am not trying to match anything, but the same question applies: Relative to each other, what, if any, were the carriage differences of the main Russian guns in use, the 6 and 12 pdrs as well as the 10 and 20 pounder unicorns.

Thanks for any help or pointing me towards some resources!

David

hi
1-Gribeauval system did not include 6 pdr. Perhaps you meant to ask about 4's?
2- Gribeauval system 12 and 8 pdrs shared gun and limber make-up.
2b- 4pdrs being smaller again, had a different makeup.

3- ANIX models did not share same dimens as Gribeauval system and were therefore incompatible. Though the ANIX 6pdr/ 24pdr howitzer did for ANIX.
4- Osprey/ Vanguard/ H&C; also IIRC ALmark were pretty good, though unsure of detail.
regards
'nuther D

Napoleonic Artillery by Dawson, Dawson and Summerfield would help you a lot. But a small bit from it on Russian carriages 12pdr medium is 283cm, light 262cm and 6pdr 228cm, 20pdr unicorn 310cm and 10pdr unicorn 237cm.
Not long ago finalized my Russian artillery of many makes and sorted out as best I could 2 sizes of 12pdrsinto light and medium in the battery, not of course any rules really cares.

Thanks all. That actually gives me what I need to come up with a basis for comparison.

Really appreciate it.

AIUI the old Hinchliffe Napoleonics were not 20mm but (nominally) 25mm, which the Hinchliffe Handbook described as "5mm to one foot". This works out as 1/61 scale. I no longer have any Hinchliffe artillery so I can't measure it, but it would be interesting to know if the guns were 1/61 scale as well, or something else.

For the French, the Gribeauval and AN XI artillery systems were different.

The vehicles and gun carriages were of 'different' design and the 6-pounder was not a Gribeauval piece, but an AN XI one.

For a quick reference, Rene Chartrand's two Ospreys on the French artillery arm are excellent.

Volume I:

link

Volume II:

link

Volume I is field artillery.

I would also highly recommend DeScheel's artillery treatise and other period manuals for reference. DeScheel is on Google books:

link

Even though it's in French you can still see the difference in measurements for different artillery vehicles and gun carriages.

There is a translation available in English from the Museum Restoration Service.

The lengths of the cheeks of the gun carriage were 7ft 8.7 inches for the 4-pounder, 9ft 4.4 inches for the 8-pounder and 9ft 10.8 inches for the 12-pounder. The gun carriages were not the same for each of the 'three calibers.

The same limber was used for both the 8- and 12-pounders and a smaller one for the 4-pounder. The howitzer used the same limber as the 8- and 12-pounders.

The length of the howitzer carriage 8ft 9.5 inches.

All of the dimensions above were rounded to the nearest one-hundredth. In the tables in the manual the decimal measurement is taken out to five places.

The only field pieces of the AN XI System that were produced in any quantity were the 6-pounder and the new 5.5-inch howitzer, both excellent weapons. The gun carriages were found to be unsuitable and the pieces were then mounted on the older Gribeauval System gun carriages, modified for the new gun tubes when necessary.

The Systeme AN XI did not replace the Gribeauval System, but merely supplemented it. N. Persy, in his Elementary Treatise on the Forms of Cannon & Various Systems of Artillery. Persy was a professor at Metz and this was published in 1832.

On page 18 it reads 'With very few exceptions, all the innovations prescribed by the decree of the year XI, and those which came after were abrogated, adn the system of Gribeauval, exhibited in detail in the tables of construction, rigorously restored.

Gribeauval's Tables of Construction, finally published by Manson in 1792, can be found in two volumes reprinted by the Bavarian State Library in two volumes.

The actual title is Reglement concernant les fontes et les constructions de L'Artillerie de France.

Thanks Brechtel198. That is extremely helpful and really appreciate the links.

My assumption would be that 6 pdrs when remounted on Gribeauval carriages would have used the larger 8 pounder carriages, not the smaller carriages for the 4 pounder – correct?

According to Haythornthwaite the French armies in the Peninsular war used only the Gribeauval system and not the ANIX guns, so essentially 4 and 8 pounders. The 6 pounders I imagine showed up in Russia and the rest of Europe.

4th Cuirassier – Hinchliffe actually had a very small 20mm artillery range:

link

14Bore – Thanks for the Russian carriage lengths. That is tremendously helpful!

photocrinch,

You are very welcome.

The 6-pounder would use the older 8-pounder gun carriages. They were probably modified to take out/off the traveling set of trunnion plates as the gun tube used only one set.

Haythornthwaite is also correct. And the Spanish army had adopted the Gribeauval System before the start of the wars.

As late as 1809 the two systems were still used by the Grande Armee. Davout's command in Germany was mostly equipped with the Gribeauval System. The two new corps formed for the campaign, Massena's and Oudinot's/Lannes was equipped with AN XI field pieces. The primary material supporting that is in Saski's history of the campaign, Volume I.

@ photocrinch

Extraordinary, I had no idea. I had plenty of the 25mm artillery and the 20mm Ww2, but until today I have never heard of this 20mm Napoleonic stuff. That said, I didn't get into metal Napoleonics till 1978 – maybe they had been and gone by then?

Shame it's long gone, I would have had some to go with my Airfix Waterloo armies.

Agreed 4th Cuirassier. They are astonishingly well detailed with axle caps and aiming screw individually cast. The carraige and barrels are nicely proportioned and work very well with 1/72 sized figures. Here's a British 9 pounder:

And a French Battery:

link

Well I certainly got all my numbers fudged up over this one.
Note to self: stop using memory, it is malfunctiong…

Two notes-
1- I've never once read (I believe) that old gun carriages were used for the ANXI barrels. Where does this come from?
2- The Hinchliffes I've seen have never appeared like those models above. They look like they are later (28mm) not 20mm first attempts- which are actually atrocious sculpts. When they redid the artillery the 28mm are sooo much bigger, aka 20mm to 28mm its ridiculous (Russian and Prussians).

The 'original' figures certainly would fit in with the Airfix (mine still packed in layer boxes) .
Sadly they didn't even complete any nationality range [that I've seen] of them so we are stuck till eternity if we have to use these models (I do, I can't reinvest in a new army).

They are so bad I didn't even bother photographing them, though they are on my 'project list'- about #80 or so!
d

</>I've never once read (I believe) that old gun carriages were used for the ANXI barrels. Where does this come from?

See pages 23-34 of Rene Chartrand's Osprey, Napoleon's Guns 1792-1815 (1): Field Artillery:

'…General Gassendi and other influential artillery officers opposed the Year XI changes to Gribeauval's system and this included modifications to its [gun] carriages and other rolling stock. Most changes were felt by critics to be cosmetic rather than real improvements and hindered mobility in the eyes of many a veteran gunner.'

'In any event, the construction plans were sent out so the [gun] carriages could be made for the new 6-pdr guns that were being cast from 1803. When submitted to rough campaign conditions, which became more common from late 1805 onwards, the new [gun] carraige design was found to have several weaknesses. In some cases, Year XI [gun] carriages fell apart under severe stress. This was hardly the sort of thing any gunner wanted to happen on campaign and, probably from 1808, dependable Gribeauval-style [gun] carriages adapted for 6-pdrs were made. From 1810, the Gribeauval system [gun] carriages were officially readopted.'-34.

This evaluation of the Systeme AN XI agrees with N. Persy's comment on the newer artillery system which was quoted in one of the prior postings.

For Russian artillery, I have found two Russian publications helpful:

-Russian Artillery of the Napoleonic Period by E. Goosef published in 2001.

-Arakcheev's Artillery: The Russian Artillery System of 1805 by Alexander Smirnoff published in 1998.

Both are magazine size, but have useful information.

Unfortunately, both are in Russian and a familiarity with the language is very helpful. The latter has excellent tables on the system.

Another very helpful book (two volumes) is Tactics of the Russian Army in the Napoleonic Wars by Alexander Zhmodikov and Yurii Zhmodikov, published in 2003.

These two volumes have excellent sections of the Russian artillery arm and chart the progress and improvement of that arm, which greatly increased after 1807. It is in English and is throroughly documented.

Excellent Brechtel198. Thanks!

My college roommate was a mobile artillery officer and Russain major. Maybe I could ask him to make a translation… :)

Great idea. It takes me forever and I have a Russian military dictionary.