"The Spartans at war - Myth vs reality" Topic

"For the last few years, I have been a regular member of the panel of experts on AskHistorians, one of the largest public history platforms on the Internet. People ask questions about my area of expertise, and I answer them.

Some time ago, I was asked a question that may come to many people's minds after watching a movie like 300 (2006) or playing a game like Total War: Rome 2 (2013) or Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (2018): "Is our worship of Spartan warriors really justified?"

It is impossible to answer in a few words. Were the Spartans better warriors than the other Greeks? In some ways, yes. Were they better for the reasons that a lot of modern people seem to think? Certainly not…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Interesting discussion.

Thank you Armand for posting

A good read, thanks!

Goes to show you that training counts for something! Great read

A votre service mes amis!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

I found that to be a very interesting article.

Interesting, although he seems to neglect some of the key elements that support the more military society theories. Lycurgus' laws from the Archaic era, and the fact that Sparta had no military walls surrounding it, unlike most other Greek cities…fascinating topic, and unless we go back to the times, may be difficult to know for sure.

Interesting. Although looking at the closing paragraphs the author posits that those who admire the Spartans are Nazis and Prussians. He seems to argue that if you admire the Spartans you must be a right wing conservative. I want to read ancient history not modern politics.

He is also not happy with Hansons view that The Greeks protected a Western way of life, not understanding the full arguments in that book.

His arguments also lack historical context referencing the Spartans "brutal oppression" of part of their population, I assume he means the Messenian helots but he doesn't actually say that. Not putting in context that oppression of people not part of your own citizen body was not unusual in Greece. Slaves being a prime example and the Athenian slaves in the silver ones being almost the walking dead, for their limited life expectancy.

He argues Spartans were nothing special until Thermopylae and until then the Argives were top dogs yet also talks about the Spartan victory over Argos in 550 BCE, so his argument lacks details.

In short, some interesting points but he over stretches his arguments as he is trying to shoe horn an attack on Sparta into a critique of modern US politics.

Sidley,

I completely agree with you. He seems to be another one of these modern revisionist historians who ignore the tons of evidence and focus on small, out of the ordinary pieces to change the established understanding. I was just hesitant to make the political side of things. Labelling people for having an interest in something you do not support is typical of our times.

Another point he completely ignores about Thermopylae, is that the Spartans had no choice but to stand and die at that time. Because of their way of life and beliefs. Spachteria was almost a century later, when the Spartan state had spread itself thin by its own success, and the drain on the citizen population was starting to tell, that's why they accepted the surrender at Spachteria, so they could preserve their citizen population.

I am sure there is a lot we still do not know about the ancient Greeks, as 2400 years is a long time, but the article above seems just a hit job in the day of light, to support the authors' contemporary worldview.

Just my two cents,

Ronin

Very interesting post-article Armand

It suggests the Spartan tactics earned them their victories and reputation, rather than their individual fighting skills. I think this would match other nations throughout history, until they were also, like the Spartans, eventually defeated at some point.

I can see what the author means when he states that the Spartans decision to die and sacrifice themselves, rather than retreat, at Thermopylae would be attractive to the Prussian Office Class and the Nazis because that's what they probably wanted everyone to be like. It is sad of course, that the fact that other Greeks, who also chose to sacrifice themselves does not seem to have been given as much credit. But it certainly does not make someone who admires their stand a Nazi.